Too Many Public Universities in ND?

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Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Number7 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:02 pm

Does anybody else agree with me or have an opinion on the issue that North Dakota has WAY too many state-funded universities and if some were closed or lost public funding it would greatly improve the other universities throughout the state?
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby NDSportsFan » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:08 pm

Which ones would you advocate closing?
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Number7 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:22 pm

Williston State College, Lake Region State (Devils Lake), Mayville State should be considered I dont know about schools like Valley City State or MSU-Bottineuau, possibly. We do not need a university in every ND town with a population over 10,000
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby NDSportsFan » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:55 pm

I've lived in Williston and Devils Lake, and close to Mayville. I've also got a B.S. from VCSU, and my brother attended MSU-Bottineau. I've seen the economic impact of those institutions in rural North Dakota, I feel my state taxes are fair, and I'd personally vote to keep them open.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby baseball » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:47 pm

think aobut it this way....how many public colleges are there in the state? theres probably close to that many in Miami, Chicago, LA, Houston alone...
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Number7 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:36 pm

What are you saying? there are also millions of people within 25-50 miles of all those colleges ND has 600,000. I definately understand the point about these colleges economic effect of that specific area, however I feel our state would benefit more if they were closed. I also believe our state would be better off to close a few of them especially with enrollments (fall 2007) like Mayville-769, Bottineau-637, Valley City-982, and williston-731. I just feel that few of students at these institutions could easily attend the like of Minot St, DSU, BSC, UND, or NDSU, and the funding the schools would free up would only increase the facilities and programs at all other universities. I feel that loss is worth the reward. My two cents
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby rep » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:00 pm

never happen...next
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Number7 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:07 pm

Why not? i know it would currently never pass through state legislature because all of the small town representatives would work together and shut it down. But I think there are some issues and this would be a logical fix for numerous reasons. Besides NDSportsFan's point, why do we need all of these small universities in every town larger than 7500 people
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby rep » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:19 pm

you want to eliminate jobs in this state? why...because there is this natural abudance of jobs that are paying 25-40 grand a year in north dakota?
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby ndfan » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:23 pm

Number7 wrote:Why not? i know it would currently never pass through state legislature because all of the small town representatives would work together and shut it down. But I think there are some issues and this would be a logical fix for numerous reasons. Besides NDSportsFan's point, why do we need all of these small universities in every town larger than 7500 people


What are the issues and how is it the logical fix??
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Ming01 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:40 pm

ND has the most high school graduates go to college than any other state. why risk anything? all of these institutions provide a huge economic growth to ND. And as rep said, why get rid of so many good jobs? Plus, I would have to say these colleges are helping the population of ND.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Hinsa » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:30 pm

Keep EVERY school in ND open. There are many students that wouldn't go to college if the small schools weren't there. Not everyone can handle a UND or NDSU or Minot State. I am proud to say I graduated from Mayville State and my degree from there has served me very well.

And reading through this thread, it looks like Number7 just started a thread to spout off about his/her viewpoint on shutting down schools.

And oh by the way, Mayville is only about 2000 in population, Devils Lake is only about 7000, Wahpeton is about 8000, Valley City is about 7000, Bottineau is about 3000. And Mandan (16,000) does NOT have a college, West Fargo (20,000+) does NOT have a college.

Number7, go lay by your dish. The state's university system is serving its student base just fine.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby baseball » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:55 pm

[quote="Hinsa"]Keep EVERY school in ND open. There are many students that wouldn't go to college if the small schools weren't there. Not everyone can handle a UND or NDSU or Minot State. I am proud to say I graduated from Mayville State and my degree from there has served me very well.
quote]

i transfered from UND to UMary and size was a main reason. i was comfortable in a class that had more students in the room then in my high shcool k-12...not all small schools are bad
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby rep » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:59 pm

i hate crowds. :x
i live in a town of 14-16k.
even in a town that size, there are too many people around me.
i wouldn't hack it in a fargo or grand forks or bismarck or minot.
i'm not alone in this way of thinking.



it almost reads like poetry. 8)
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Ming01 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:56 am

I went to a high school with about 20-30 students in each of my classes and now at NDSU I am in classes that average around 200-300 students. No big deal for me, wasn't really a big transition. I like being at a decent size college, Fargo is a big city, I like it here. Big cities and congestion don't scare me.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby NDSportsFan » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:43 am

I can understand your point Number7, but you will have a hard time arguing this point to people outside of Fargo, Grand Forks and maybe Bismarck. I understand that the cost for educating each student would be less on average if we consolidated some of our colleges. But the scandinavian traditions brought to North Dakota by the early homesteaders placed a high priority on local education, and financial obstacles were not be a deterance.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby point/center » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:29 am

rep wrote:you want to eliminate jobs in this state? why...because there is this natural abudance of jobs that are paying 25-40 grand a year in north dakota?


rep wrote:you want to eliminate jobs in this state? why...because there is this natural abudance of jobs that are paying 25-40 grand a year in north dakota?


while I personally enjoy having the excess. It's interesting that the state and tuition are what fund these higher paying jobs in Valley City, Williston, Bottineau etc. If you close down the schools does that state save that much more money? And what would ND do with it? Put it in a whole with the other 800 million we have in excess?

And it is true that some public school jobs in HS at Fargo pay higher than positions at VCSU. Take it to the bank.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby dtvman » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:30 am

Instead of trying to close the smaller schools, why would you not try to bring in more students to these schools. If you aren't Fargo, GF, Bismarck, or Minot you are losing population. Closing schools would just speed up that process. The state needs to do whatever it can to jump start growth in areas outside of the big four. I say try to increase the number of students at the smaller schools.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Number7 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:01 pm

Alright settle down Hinsa, Im not gonna lay in my dish or whatever. I was simply stating my opinion on an issue and everyone else has stated theres. I understand the idea that some people want to attend smaller universities, we would lose some jobs, and growth would be centralized in larger cities. I am just making a point how it seems like every year I here about schools like Mayville (just an example), and im not questioning the quality of an education at these schools, but they are constantly having to cut certain programs and consolidate others just to stay in the black. I would not advocate closing every small college but I personally feel one or two here or there would make a big difference.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Hinsa » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:38 pm

Closing a small college or two would not help the state budget, in my opinion. The money that goes to the smaller schools would simply get channeled to other budgetary items, like refurbishing the president's house at UND and NDSU.

The state budget is flush right now with all the oil money. They should be spending that excess to upgrade the smaller campuses to attract more students. Instead they pour money into the bigger universities so the president can live in a bigger mansion. Meanwhile, professors at the smaller schools are living in tiny houses and driving old cars because they can't afford larger or newer housing and cars.

Money is absolutely not an issue for our state government right now. Channeling that money to where it is most needed is an issue. Upgrades at the smaller schools = more students at those schools = more tuition dollars coming in. Then we don't have to pay a disproportionate amount per student to keep the smaller schools going.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Mandan » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:10 pm

It is interesting how different states had different philosphies with colleges. South Dakota has the exact same number of public four-year colleges (6), but they don't have the junior college system like we do. It always seemed strange to me that the capital city of Pierre does not have a college of some kind. I wonder if they have a smaller higher education budget than North Dakota.
Wyoming has only one four year college, and a whole bunch of junior colleges.

While it makes logical sense from an efficiency standpoint to have less colleges, things aren't bad enough yet to force a change. I bet the only way one will close is If a college has a really low enrollment that it looks like it can't recover from
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby Makotifarmguy » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:37 pm

Boy, wished i would have seen this topic earlier.

The problem with choosing the 2 year campuses first is the fact that 80% of the jobs here in ND are trade and technical jobs. ND's problem is that 70% of our senior graduates go to a 4 year institution. That means that when those finish college with a professional degree, there are no jobs for them here. That is why the 2 year schools need to be in place.

LRSC has more students than WSC, VCU, Mayville St., MiSU-Bott. Add in the fact they have some programs that are only available on that campus and you most certainly wouldn't want to close that campus.

MiSU-Bott is considered "The Forestry School". I believe they have the lowest enrollment numbers amongst the 11 campuses. It would take a constitutional amendment to close that school down. It isn't happening.

WSC is strategically located. Nobody is close them and there are some programs there that would be very difficult to transfer onto another campus's shoulders.

Mayville is probably the worst off financially. They just can't seem to make ends meet. Their placed between two big schools and I am unaware of any specific programs they offer that can't be found in other places. Fortunately for them and VCU they have the strongest education programs in the state along with Minot State.

NDSCS is strong financially and have programs not available at other campuses. They have a niche market because they pull in many MN students...they even have a recruiter or two in the cities.

The problem isn't schools. It is the fact that many of our seniors are not ready for the big two yet they are going there and dropping out after the first year. Some come home and never go back to school, others transfer back to the WCS or the BSC's. Some are pulled over by East Grand Forks Technical College or Moorhead technical college.

Either way, they end up at a 2 year school. Remember that 80% of our jobs here in ND are trade and technical. When you look at a 51% drop out rate at UND or NDSU after the freshman year, it indicates "to me" anyway that most of our graduating seniors should start at a 2 year school here in ND.

My biggest issue are the ND students that leave NDSU or UND and go across the river for school. I have read the studies taken place and when a student leaves our state, we have about a 30% chance of getting them to return....so if they want a 2 year degree and we want to keep them in this state these students need to be turned toward our 2 year schools in NORTH DAKOTA.

Do we have too many colleges/universities? That is an extremely hard question to answer. 20 years ago the legislature covered 75% of the student's cost to get a degree. Which means 25% was left on the student's shoulders. Now the current student has to bear 52% of the total cost to get a college education. The legislature has and is continuing to underfund our higher education institutes and they haven't held our two big schools to be more accountable for the money they do get.

Which poses the next problem. Tuition has risen about 200% since 1985. Right now a person attending NDSU or UND will finish a 4 yr degree with $40,000 in student loans. That isn't right. It forces our students to have to take jobs out of state for higher wages. They can save $13,000-$15,000 by attending a 2 year school prior to a 4 year school.

I have sat in the legislative sessions regarding higher education for more years than I can count. It is sad to see that our legislators have basically turned their backs to our young kids that are entering college.

IMHO the 2 year schools need to exist for the sake of ND jobs. I do however think we need to re-evaluate the number of 4 year schools based on their enrollments, their financial situation, and the programs they offer.

Sorry, I am a higher ed junkie.
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby point/center » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:49 pm

Makotifarmguy wrote:Boy, wished i would have seen this topic earlier.



I have sat in the legislative sessions regarding higher education for more years than I can count. It is sad to see that our legislators have basically turned their backs to our young kids that are entering college.



Sorry, I am a higher ed junkie.


and our legislature is so out of touch with the rest of North Dakota. Just by it's make up we're relegated to farmers, ranches, real estate agents etc that can take 3 months off every 2 years to legislate. I know you've been there more than I have....would have to guess there is more silver in the legislative chamber than spirit lake casino slot machines?

guess the bigger issue is the future of ND. Personally I wish I'd have spent more time in JUCO than at 4 year. Price is by far the compelling rationale. What can you get at NDSU/UND in the first two years of school that you can't get at a JUCO?
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby rep » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:52 pm

point/center wrote:
Makotifarmguy wrote:Boy, wished i would have seen this topic earlier.



I have sat in the legislative sessions regarding higher education for more years than I can count. It is sad to see that our legislators have basically turned their backs to our young kids that are entering college.



Sorry, I am a higher ed junkie.


and our legislature is so out of touch with the rest of North Dakota. Just by it's make up we're relegated to farmers, ranches, real estate agents etc that can take 3 months off every 2 years to legislate. I know you've been there more than I have....would have to guess there is more silver in the legislative chamber than spirit lake casino slot machines?

guess the bigger issue is the future of ND. Personally I wish I'd have spent more time in JUCO than at 4 year. Price is by far the compelling rationale. What can you get at NDSU/UND in the first two years of school that you can't get at a JUCO?[/quote]

another bison first down?
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Re: Too Many Public Universities in ND?

Postby point/center » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:56 pm

rep wrote:
point/center wrote:
Makotifarmguy wrote:Boy, wished i would have seen this topic earlier.



I have sat in the legislative sessions regarding higher education for more years than I can count. It is sad to see that our legislators have basically turned their backs to our young kids that are entering college.



Sorry, I am a higher ed junkie.


and our legislature is so out of touch with the rest of North Dakota. Just by it's make up we're relegated to farmers, ranches, real estate agents etc that can take 3 months off every 2 years to legislate. I know you've been there more than I have....would have to guess there is more silver in the legislative chamber than spirit lake casino slot machines?

guess the bigger issue is the future of ND. Personally I wish I'd have spent more time in JUCO than at 4 year. Price is by far the compelling rationale. What can you get at NDSU/UND in the first two years of school that you can't get at a JUCO?[/quote]

another bison first down?


yep...free 'du-cats' to NDSU games...but from what I hear there is NO guarantee for UND hockey tickets for students?
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