If you don't like the sioux....do you have a better suggesti

[Roughrider]

All im am saying is that the people who gripe about this situation so much have no proof to back it up. Everyone says UND has so much racism, they are hostile and abusive, blah blah blah. All i have to say is go to the University, spend some time go though the buildings, go through the different types of programs that they have, you will see that the Native American civilization and traditions are treated with the utmost respect.

[Indians Alumni]

I have visited UND, on many occasions. On one occasion, the use of the nickname "Savage Indians" was used for one of the Intramural hockey teams. Some students decided to vandilize the Tipi that was out side the Native American Center, beer cans where scattered all around the inside. The statue out front was vandalized on occasion. Some students where harrassed. So tell me how again, how it is such a beautiful place. Walk a mile in anothers shoes before passing judgement.

Being immortalized as a mascot was not what my ancestors had in mind when they fought and where murdered for our freedom. Allowing this mascot and nickname to go on is a mockery to what my anciestors fought for!

[OldSchool]

They can also provide different programs, work with high school kids to promote higher education, that would be really big of UND. I am not saying throw money at the situation, money without direction is useless! They need to work with the Tribes for a better solution than throwing money!

Indians Alumni can you give me some examples/ideas for different programs and also some ways of working with and/or promoting high education?

[EDC]

Why does NDSU get a free pass on this issue? Just put the sioux name aside for a minute because I have wondered about this. All I hear about is how much more UND should be doing for Indian studies and Indian relationships etc. Is NDSU (and othe North Dakota colleges and universities) being held to the same standards? In some respects the issues being raised are much bigger then the UND Fighting Sioux name and much won't be fixed by changing names, though it wouldn't bother me if the name was changed. Guess the question is why isn't NDSU being spotlighted with the same complaints that UND is getting. I would say that UND spends much more time and resources toward this issue and should be given some credit.

[flatlander]

Why does NDSU get a free pass on this issue? Just put the sioux name aside for a minute because I have wondered about this. All I hear about is how much more UND should be doing for Indian studies and Indian relationships etc. Is NDSU (and othe North Dakota colleges and universities) being held to the same standards?

I'm not sure I follow you. I know A lot of UND folks are acting like the Indian programs are some sort of terrible burden that UND is forced to bear on account of the nickname, but that's not the case. You hear so much about UND's Indian programs for two reasons. First, UND has gottens MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars in state and federal money for their Indian programs (NDSU has not). Second, everytime the nickname issue comes up, UND parades these programs about to gain sympathy and support (obviously NDSU doesn't need or want to do that).

Believe me if UND no longer wants their Indian programs, every other university within a 1000 miles would gladly take them off of their hands (along with the prestige and the millions of dollars of funding they bring).

[nativegolfer]

Why does NDSU get a free pass on this issue? Just put the sioux name aside for a minute because I have wondered about this. All I hear about is how much more UND should be doing for Indian studies and Indian relationships etc. Is NDSU (and othe North Dakota colleges and universities) being held to the same standards?

I'm not sure I follow you. I know A lot of UND folks are acting like the Indian programs are some sort of terrible burden that UND is forced to bear on account of the nickname, but that's not the case. You hear so much about UND's Indian programs for two reasons. First, UND has gottens MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars in state and federal money for their Indian programs (NDSU has not). Second, everytime the nickname issue comes up, UND parades these programs about to gain sympathy and support (obviously NDSU doesn't need or want to do that).

Believe me if UND no longer wants their Indian programs, every other university within a 1000 miles would gladly take them off of their hands (along with the prestige and the millions of dollars of funding they bring).

Excellent point flatlander. Currently, NDSU is working with the tribal colleges/HS on the rez's with a program funded by ND Epscor. Once a month, engineering faculty from NDSU travel to HS's on the rezs and conduct what we call Sunday Science Academies with help from teachers from the colleges and HS's. I have worked with the tribal college and FWHS for almost 20 years and UND has never done anything in this capacity. In fact, they were offered this program and didn't want to do it so NDSU took the reigns.

[money2128]

I have visited UND, on many occasions. On one occasion, the use of the nickname "Savage Indians" was used for one of the Intramural hockey teams. Some students decided to vandilize the Tipi that was out side the Native American Center, beer cans where scattered all around the inside. The statue out front was vandalized on occasion. Some students where harrassed. So tell me how again, how it is such a beautiful place. Walk a mile in anothers shoes before passing judgement.

Being immortalized as a mascot was not what my ancestors had in mind when they fought and where murdered for our freedom. Allowing this mascot and nickname to go on is a mockery to what my anciestors fought for!

First of all your talking about college kids, and I'm not saying i agree with what they did. But, I'm pretty sure those kids who did those things were not the ones who come up with the good things UND does. Such as the programs, and honoring the native amercans before every sioux home game at the ralph. Also check this link out http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/ ... story.html and you will see a picture of an american indian doing a native dance durning a dedication at Ralph Englestade Arena. Obviously he is not offended by the nickname or the logo or he wouldn't have done that. About a week ago I was in Walmart and I happened to pass by a native american wearing a Fighting Sioux hooded sweatshirt and a Fighting Sioux hat with the logo and the words"Fighting Sioux" on it. I'm assuming he is also not offended. The logo was designed by an american indian artist. The bottom line is UND has had the fighting sioux name since the 1930s, it is a tradition, and the majority of the people want to keep it. I dont think UND would't go out of their way spend millions of dollars on a name and a logo to make a mockery out of your ancestors. The whole thing about changing the nickname and logo; all it is doing is creating more racial tension.

[EDC]

Why does NDSU get a free pass on this issue? Just put the sioux name aside for a minute because I have wondered about this. All I hear about is how much more UND should be doing for Indian studies and Indian relationships etc. Is NDSU (and othe North Dakota colleges and universities) being held to the same standards?

I'm not sure I follow you. I know A lot of UND folks are acting like the Indian programs are some sort of terrible burden that UND is forced to bear on account of the nickname, but that's not the case. You hear so much about UND's Indian programs for two reasons. First, UND has gottens MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars in state and federal money for their Indian programs (NDSU has not). Second, everytime the nickname issue comes up, UND parades these programs about to gain sympathy and support (obviously NDSU doesn't need or want to do that).

Believe me if UND no longer wants their Indian programs, every other university within a 1000 miles would gladly take them off of their hands (along with the prestige and the millions of dollars of funding they bring).

Excellent point flatlander. Currently, NDSU is working with the tribal colleges/HS on the rez's with a program funded by ND Epscor. Once a month, engineering faculty from NDSU travel to HS's on the rezs and conduct what we call Sunday Science Academies with help from teachers from the colleges and HS's. I have worked with the tribal college and FWHS for almost 20 years and UND has never done anything in this capacity. In fact, they were offered this program and didn't want to do it so NDSU took the reigns.[/quote]

Thanks for the info.

Nativegolfer, why on earth would UND not follow up on this program? What did UND say when asked? What other (are there?) programs are there that UND actually goes to the reservations?

Flatlander - Is it true that the net cost to UND for all these Indian programs is zero or maybe even puts money in its pockets? That too would be amazing to me - didn't know that!

[nativegolfer]

Why does NDSU get a free pass on this issue? Just put the sioux name aside for a minute because I have wondered about this. All I hear about is how much more UND should be doing for Indian studies and Indian relationships etc. Is NDSU (and othe North Dakota colleges and universities) being held to the same standards?

I'm not sure I follow you. I know A lot of UND folks are acting like the Indian programs are some sort of terrible burden that UND is forced to bear on account of the nickname, but that's not the case. You hear so much about UND's Indian programs for two reasons. First, UND has gottens MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars in state and federal money for their Indian programs (NDSU has not). Second, everytime the nickname issue comes up, UND parades these programs about to gain sympathy and support (obviously NDSU doesn't need or want to do that).

Believe me if UND no longer wants their Indian programs, every other university within a 1000 miles would gladly take them off of their hands (along with the prestige and the millions of dollars of funding they bring).

Excellent point flatlander. Currently, NDSU is working with the tribal colleges/HS on the rez's with a program funded by ND Epscor. Once a month, engineering faculty from NDSU travel to HS's on the rezs and conduct what we call Sunday Science Academies with help from teachers from the colleges and HS's. I have worked with the tribal college and FWHS for almost 20 years and UND has never done anything in this capacity. In fact, they were offered this program and didn't want to do it so NDSU took the reigns.[/quote]

Thanks for the info.

Nativegolfer, why on earth would UND not follow up on this program? What did UND say when asked? What other (are there?) programs are there that UND actually goes to the reservations?

Flatlander - Is it true that the net cost to UND for all these Indian programs is zero or maybe even puts money in its pockets? That too would be amazing to me - didn't know that!

[flatlander]

Flatlander - Is it true that the net cost to UND for all these Indian programs is zero or maybe even puts money in its pockets? That too would be amazing to me - didn't know that!

I don't think that UND can "make" money from their programs. UND started these programs with good intentions and, while it might not have cost them anything to do so, at least they had the vision to start them. Since then, UND has seemed to lost their way a bit. Hopefully, a new President can get them back on course.

[Ballin]

Just because a few "immature college students" have done things on campus to insult a few people, doesn't mean UND is discriminating against the Native American race. Having an institution like UND represent you or your tribe as their mascot should be thought of as an honor. I agree with a few comments made earlier. If some people think UND is wrong for having the Fighting Sioux nickname, then why not make a big deal about the ND Fighting Irish, the Montreal Canadiens, the Washington Redskins, the Florida State Seminoles, the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, etc. If they really want to cause an uproar why not oppose Pittsburgh's nickname. They could just as well stick up for the Penguins too!

I just think having UND spend a million dollars to replace logos in their facilities is just ridiculous! Its still not going to change anything, you will still have a select few who would go to the end of the Earth to insult others.

[project-pat]

Just because a few "immature college students" have done things on campus to insult a few people, doesn't mean UND is discriminating against the Native American race. Having an institution like UND represent you or your tribe as their mascot should be thought of as an honor. I agree with a few comments made earlier. If some people think UND is wrong for having the Fighting Sioux nickname, then why not make a big deal about the ND Fighting Irish, the Montreal Canadiens, the Washington Redskins, the Florida Seminoles, the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, etc. If they really want to cause an uproar why not oppose Pittsburgh's nickname. They could just as well stick up for the Penguins too!

I just think having UND spend a million dollars to replace logos in their facilities is just ridiculous! Its still not going to change anything, you will still have a select few who would go to the end of the Earth to insult others.

The Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins, and Cleveland Indians are allowed to keep their nickname because they are privately owned organizations, which I disagree with. If a group of people is offended by something, no matter the case, something should be done to change it. Everybody on this earth is human and they should not have to put up with discrimination of any kind. You can not honestly sit here and say that if a Native American school had a nickname that offended white people, that you wouldn't try to do something to stop it. If Native Americans are offended by the UND nickname, then change it. It is just a nickname after all, people will get over it.

[OldSchool]

Just because a few "immature college students" have done things on campus to insult a few people, doesn't mean UND is discriminating against the Native American race. Having an institution like UND represent you or your tribe as their mascot should be thought of as an honor. I agree with a few comments made earlier. If some people think UND is wrong for having the Fighting Sioux nickname, then why not make a big deal about the ND Fighting Irish, the Montreal Canadiens, the Washington Redskins, the Florida Seminoles, the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, etc. If they really want to cause an uproar why not oppose Pittsburgh's nickname. They could just as well stick up for the Penguins too!

I just think having UND spend a million dollars to replace logos in their facilities is just ridiculous! Its still not going to change anything, you will still have a select few who would go to the end of the Earth to insult others.

The Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins, and Cleveland Indians are allowed to keep their nickname because they are privately owned organizations, which I disagree with. If a group of people is offended by something, no matter the case, something should be done to change it. Everybody on this earth is human and they should not have to put up with discrimination of any kind. You can not honestly sit here and say that if a Native American school had a nickname that offended white people, that you wouldn't try to do something to stop it. If Native Americans are offended by the UND nickname, then change it. It is just a nickname after all, people will get over it.

Which is exactly what white people have done. You don't see white people picketing and crying about the Canadiens, or the Fighting Irish. We have done just that gotten over it and taken pride in it. Aren't there bigger issues to worry about on the reservations than a nickname that is used in the highest of regards.

[project-pat]

Just because a few "immature college students" have done things on campus to insult a few people, doesn't mean UND is discriminating against the Native American race. Having an institution like UND represent you or your tribe as their mascot should be thought of as an honor. I agree with a few comments made earlier. If some people think UND is wrong for having the Fighting Sioux nickname, then why not make a big deal about the ND Fighting Irish, the Montreal Canadiens, the Washington Redskins, the Florida Seminoles, the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, etc. If they really want to cause an uproar why not oppose Pittsburgh's nickname. They could just as well stick up for the Penguins too!

I just think having UND spend a million dollars to replace logos in their facilities is just ridiculous! Its still not going to change anything, you will still have a select few who would go to the end of the Earth to insult others.

The Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins, and Cleveland Indians are allowed to keep their nickname because they are privately owned organizations, which I disagree with. If a group of people is offended by something, no matter the case, something should be done to change it. Everybody on this earth is human and they should not have to put up with discrimination of any kind. You can not honestly sit here and say that if a Native American school had a nickname that offended white people, that you wouldn't try to do something to stop it. If Native Americans are offended by the UND nickname, then change it. It is just a nickname after all, people will get over it.

Which is exactly what white people have done. You don't see white people picketing and crying about the Canadiens, or the Fighting Irish. We have done just that gotten over it and taken pride in it. Aren't there bigger issues to worry about on the reservations than a nickname that is used in the highest of regards.

again....Montreal and Notre Dame are privately owned....

[Ming01]

Just because a few "immature college students" have done things on campus to insult a few people, doesn't mean UND is discriminating against the Native American race. Having an institution like UND represent you or your tribe as their mascot should be thought of as an honor. I agree with a few comments made earlier. If some people think UND is wrong for having the Fighting Sioux nickname, then why not make a big deal about the ND Fighting Irish, the Montreal Canadiens, the Washington Redskins, the Florida Seminoles, the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, etc. If they really want to cause an uproar why not oppose Pittsburgh's nickname. They could just as well stick up for the Penguins too!

I just think having UND spend a million dollars to replace logos in their facilities is just ridiculous! Its still not going to change anything, you will still have a select few who would go to the end of the Earth to insult others.

The Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins, and Cleveland Indians are allowed to keep their nickname because they are privately owned organizations, which I disagree with. If a group of people is offended by something, no matter the case, something should be done to change it. Everybody on this earth is human and they should not have to put up with discrimination of any kind. You can not honestly sit here and say that if a Native American school had a nickname that offended white people, that you wouldn't try to do something to stop it. If Native Americans are offended by the UND nickname, then change it. It is just a nickname after all, people will get over it.

Which is exactly what white people have done. You don't see white people picketing and crying about the Canadiens, or the Fighting Irish. We have done just that gotten over it and taken pride in it. Aren't there bigger issues to worry about on the reservations than a nickname that is used in the highest of regards.

I dont get why people keep bringing up the Fighting Irish? The Fighting Irish nickname is irrelevant to this topic. Notre Dame's nickname ws created by Irish Catholic Priests whereas UND's Fighting Irish was started by Whites.

And as far as ppl being offended, now days pretty much no matter what, in any situation there's going to be someone who is offended, I dont care if it's mascots or anything else. We live in a politically correct society nowdays and if one person is offended by something it will be done. If I was offended by the Bismarck "Demons"or U-Mary "Marauders", I bet I could get their names changed too. And personally I dont think changing the Fighting Sioux nickname will stop racism, if any at all.

[thundercat 99]

Also, this issue could distance Native Americans from others in the student population, with Native Americans getting a lot of the blame for it. I'm not blaming Native Americans myself, but people close to UND will react to the name change and want to place the blame on someone.

[Hinsa]

Ya know, something just occurred to me about this debate: The supporters of the Fighting Sioux name are passionate about not letting go of the name because they have a fierce pride in that name.

What better reason for keeping the name? My hope for the Sioux tribes is that they would realize just how passionate the supporters are about that name and understand the pride that the supporters take in that name. Then I would hope the tribes could take pride in the fact that supporters of the name - natives and whites alike - have such a fierce loyalty to the name of their tribe.

Am I making sense? Isn't the support of the name a sign of how prideful people are of the Sioux name and what it represents?

To me the Sioux name represents a people with a proud heritage with rich traditions. by supporting the Fighting Sioux name, aren't the supporters honoring the Sioux people by wanting to keep that name as part of a great institution of higher learning?

I work in Mobridge, SD a couple of weeks every summer and have gotten to know some of the Standing Rock tribe members. They are very, very proud of those in their tribe that have gone on to further their education at a college or university. I firmly believe that these people I have gotten to know are proud that a university has chosen their tribal name as a symbol of the high goals of higher education that UND strives for.

I could be all wet in this belief. Please tell me what you think.

[Mr. Knowitall]

Also, this issue could distance Native Americans from others in the student population, with Native Americans getting a lot of the blame for it. I'm not blaming Native Americans myself, but people close to UND will react to the name change and want to place the blame on someone.

I totally agree with this statement. I think the nickname just creates an unnecessary avenue for racism among the NA students and the NA people associated with the university.

[ndfan]

Also, this issue could distance Native Americans from others in the student population, with Native Americans getting a lot of the blame for it. I'm not blaming Native Americans myself, but people close to UND will react to the name change and want to place the blame on someone.

I totally agree with this statement. I think the nickname just creates an unnecessary avenue for racism among the NA students and the NA people associated with the university.

http://www.salukitalk.net/st/viewtopic.php?t=18631

[Hinsa]

I looked at the link you posted, NDfan. Talk about racism....even if the writer meant it to be funny. The things posted in that link are precisely the stereotypes that are causing so much trouble in the whole nickname controversy.

I am sad, really sad, that anyone would think that crap would be funny. I'm sure Dale Lennon would be horrified if he saw that posting board.

[balla45]

How many of you people actually have dealt with racism? If you have, you would be able to see why you might not want people attaching what you are, in this case Sioux, to a group of people who don't represent you.
Montreal probably doesn't have a problem with being called Canadiens. Montreal is in Canada, and thus represents them well.
UND has a predominately white population, which is most likely a reason Native Americans don't want their name attached.

[project-pat]

While typing a paper on the issue of offensive mascots....I stumbled across a quote from Hank Aaron....

"Would we think of calling teams names such as the "Chicago Caucasians," the "Buffalo Blacks," or the "San Diego Jews?" Could you imagine people mocking African Americans in black face at a game? Yet go to a game where there is a team with an Indian name and you will see fans with war paint on their faces. Is this not the equivalent to black face? Although the thought of changing tradition is often painful, the sting of racism is always painful to its victims."

so true....

[dtvman]

While typing a paper on the issue of offensive mascots....I stumbled across a quote from Hank Aaron....

"Would we think of calling teams names such as the "Chicago Caucasians," the "Buffalo Blacks," or the "San Diego Jews?" Could you imagine people mocking African Americans in black face at a game? Yet go to a game where there is a team with an Indian name and you will see fans with war paint on their faces. Is this not the equivalent to black face? Although the thought of changing tradition is often painful, the sting of racism is always painful to its victims."

so true....

Well according to the supporters of the nickname, the groups should feel honored because of the use of those names. They should feel honored because the supporters say they should feel honored. The supporters don't find it offensive so therefore it must not be offensive. Somehow their opinion of what others should find offensive is more important than anyone else's.

Traditions change all the time. If traditions didn't change UND would still be the flickertails. NDSU would still be the Aggies or the Farmers. It is time for this tradition to go away and stop insulting people.

[Roughrider]

Ya know, something just occurred to me about this debate: The supporters of the Fighting Sioux name are passionate about not letting go of the name because they have a fierce pride in that name.

What better reason for keeping the name? My hope for the Sioux tribes is that they would realize just how passionate the supporters are about that name and understand the pride that the supporters take in that name. Then I would hope the tribes could take pride in the fact that supporters of the name - natives and whites alike - have such a fierce loyalty to the name of their tribe.

Am I making sense? Isn't the support of the name a sign of how prideful people are of the Sioux name and what it represents?

To me the Sioux name represents a people with a proud heritage with rich traditions. by supporting the Fighting Sioux name, aren't the supporters honoring the Sioux people by wanting to keep that name as part of a great institution of higher learning?

I work in Mobridge, SD a couple of weeks every summer and have gotten to know some of the Standing Rock tribe members. They are very, very proud of those in their tribe that have gone on to further their education at a college or university. I firmly believe that these people I have gotten to know are proud that a university has chosen their tribal name as a symbol of the high goals of higher education that UND strives for.

I could be all wet in this belief. Please tell me what you think.

i agree with you 100%. the people that support the nickname dont just fight for the nickname they support it for what it stands for. the fighting sioux nation is a nation that has great pride in itself and sticks together. that is what the athletics at UND are all about. taking pride in itself and sticking together through everything. UND athletics are all family just as the sioux nation is. that is what it symbolizes, the pride and the togetherness.

[Indians Alumni]

That is all fine and dandy but some people are offended and just because you take pride and are a family doesn't make it right! The KKK is a brotherhood who takes pride in their name and are a family, does that make them right and no one should care?