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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:10 pm

Indy5 wrote:
Hinsa wrote:
The Schwab wrote:I guess that's what happens when they reach for a qb in the first round that would have been available in the third or fourth round.

Could not agree more! There is a reason Ponder didn't set the world on fire at Florida State and we're seeing why now.

Being a Miami fan, I watched him play for 4 years and I knew he wasn't anything special. Never could understand that pick.

To all Vikings fans, watch another team before you hate on their receivers and line. The line is better than a lot of them. Ponder has an explosive pro bowl receiver, a good young tight end and an awesome play action game because of AP. There are A LOT of places that would be worse to be. Watch a Jags game once.


Do you honestly think they are the only team we watch? Personally, I watch parts of every game during the week. Their line is average at best. Kalil was a great addition and handles his position. Pressure is constantly coming up the middle and from the right and the backs are not picking it up. IMO, losing Birk was huge. O'Sullivan does not handle the play calling like Matt did. Other then Harvin, their receivers are well below average. Rudolph is an above average tight end, but they do not get him the ball "early & often". Ponder will be fine and in no way should Webb even be brought into the conversation.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Flip » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:56 pm

How poorly would Ponder have to play before you would consider Webb? 2 of the last 3 games he's failed to throw for 65 yards. That doesn't even seem possible. Even if you think of the worst QBs and worst supporting casts they still throw for more than 65 yards. The Seattle Times reported that the 44 passing yards Seattle gave up was the fewest amount they had given up in 14 years.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:52 am

IMO, it's not how poorly rather can he play out of it and regain his confidence. Every good QB, including Elway, the Mannings, Marino, etc. had rocky stretches during their early years. The coaches/teams stayed with them and let them play through it and learn. Pulling him now would destroy any confidence he still has and most likely ruin him. If he doesn't improve by the end of the year, then he isn't the QB for them.
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Re: Vikings

Postby The Schwab » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:47 am

The ceiling for Ponder IMO would be to be a decent starting qb, I don't think he has the ability to become an All-Pro QB
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Re: Vikings

Postby Indy5 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:54 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:Do you honestly think they are the only team we watch? Personally, I watch parts of every game during the week. Their line is average at best. Kalil was a great addition and handles his position. Pressure is constantly coming up the middle and from the right and the backs are not picking it up. IMO, losing Birk was huge. O'Sullivan does not handle the play calling like Matt did. Other then Harvin, their receivers are well below average. Rudolph is an above average tight end, but they do not get him the ball "early & often". Ponder will be fine and in no way should Webb even be brought into the conversation.

I'm sure you do. My post was more voicing my opinion of Vikings fans I know who only watch Vikings game.

Interesting stat, only their thursday night game, 9 of Ponder's 19 completions were behind the line of scrimmage.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Hinsa » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:00 pm

Flip wrote:How poorly would Ponder have to play before you would consider Webb? 2 of the last 3 games he's failed to throw for 65 yards. That doesn't even seem possible. Even if you think of the worst QBs and worst supporting casts they still throw for more than 65 yards. The Seattle Times reported that the 44 passing yards Seattle gave up was the fewest amount they had given up in 14 years.


That is definitely one thing I am sick and tired of - other teams doing something against the Vikings they haven't done in umpteen years. A couple of years ago teams were setting team records for passing yards against the Viking defense. Now other teams are setting defensive team records against the pass. It's not that the Vikings just fail, it's that when they do fail, they fail catastrophically!!!! :x
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Re: Vikings

Postby Flip » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:29 am

Nice game today. Ponder was obviously much better today. Without his best weapon is impressive. Better game planning and game calling might have helped too I'm not sure anyone can know for sure. ADP is such a beast. To think coming into the season no one really knew what to expect from him and 10 weeks into the season he's on pace to have his best season by yardage ever.

Would be great to have an awesome game plan going into the Chicago game with 2 weeks off and steal one. It would help if Cutler didn't play too, although I think he'll be back.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:40 pm

Yes, he did look better. Considering his last game that didn't take much. He did have some nice throws and spread the ball out (10 different receivers?). Went to Rudolph earlier and that seemed to help. I would like to see them at least take a shot into the end zone when they get down inside the red zone instead of the dump off passes and then settle for a field goal. With Rudolph and Carlson as big as they are, you would think they could throw one up to them. All in all, a good effort all around. AP is something. When they can get the lead early and then give a heavy dose of him in the second half, that's tough to beat.
So, the million dollar question, do you think Percy sitting helped Ponder out? Seems that Percy wants to be "the man" and maybe Ponder feels pressured to look his way first every time.
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Re: Vikings

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:03 am

He made the simple throws that he should make, he does get paid to play quarterback, he didn't win the game for them, he just didn't lose it.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:36 am

The Schwab wrote:He made the simple throws that he should make, he does get paid to play quarterback, he didn't win the game for them, he just didn't lose it.

Wow. Your right. Every game the Vikes have lost this year were Ponders fault. Every game they have won was in spite of Ponder and his pathetic ability. Let me ask you Mr. Schwab and all of your red letter friends, what's the answer then?
Last edited by Bison-Vikes #1 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vikings

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 am

He has to manage the game, make the short throws, protect the ball, turn and give the ball to AP 25+ times a game. They shouldn't have drafted ponder when they did, they could have at the very least traded back to draft him.
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Re: Vikings

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:46 am

They are 29th in passing and 3rd in rushing. Not to hard to figure out what they are lacking.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:11 pm

Through week 10:
Completions - Ponder 12th ahead of Rivers, Dalton, Schaub, Cutler, Gabbert
Yards - Ponder 20th ahead of Griffin, Cutler, Schaub, Cassel, Smith, Gabbert
TD's Ponder 18th ahead of Romo, Stafford, Luck, Sanchez
INT's Ponder 16th ahead of Brees, Romo, Dalton, E. Manning, Luck, Rivers, Sanchez
Now, he hasn't had his bye so the numbers are skewed a bit, but still in front of a lot of big time QB's.
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Re: Vikings

Postby winner-within » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:14 pm

agreed...vikings have never been known as draft masters.........I do see progress in a team of whole though....
they are the second youngest offense in the NFL....they need to keep baby sitting Ponder (his coach on the side line, not in the box)....I find the "Percy" comment interesting, and also believe it holds some truth....his well deserved recognition of his success might have went to his head a bit......I think they will keep growing as the new stadium nears, I also think the weight is mostly on Frazier....jmo
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Re: Vikings

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:46 pm

They should have promoted tomlin when they had the chance IMO, instead of letting Pitt pick him up.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:24 pm

The Schwab wrote:I guess that's what happens when they reach for a qb in the first round that would have been available in the third or fourth round.


Here's some interesting information on comparing Ponder to "Franchise QBs".

Class of 2012 - Luck #1 (2/4), Griffin III #2 (3/4), Tannehill 8 (3/4)
Class of 2011 - Newton #1 (3/4), Locker #8 (4/4), Gabbert #10 (3/4)
Class of 2010 - Bradford #1 (2/4)
Class of 2009 - Stafford #1 (2/4), Sanchez #5 (4/4)
In 4 QB categories, Yds, Completions, TDs, and INTs: Ponder is ahead of the QBs above a minimum of 2 of 4.

Is he really doing that bad or do you simply not like the guy?
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Re: Vikings

Postby winner-within » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:34 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:I guess that's what happens when they reach for a qb in the first round that would have been available in the third or fourth round.


Here's some interesting information on comparing Ponder to "Franchise QBs".

Class of 2012 - Luck #1 (2/4), Griffin III #2 (3/4), Tannehill 8 (3/4)
Class of 2011 - Newton #1 (3/4), Locker #8 (4/4), Gabbert #10 (3/4)
Class of 2010 - Bradford #1 (2/4)
Class of 2009 - Stafford #1 (2/4), Sanchez #5 (4/4)
In 4 QB categories, Yds, Completions, TDs, and INTs: Ponder is ahead of the QBs above a minimum of 2 of 4.

Is he really doing that bad or do you simply not like the guy?


Stats are one thing....But you cant squander a 5-1 record....the pressure lies on the QB, plain and simple and the coaches...the Vikes have to stay focused and Ponder has to make sure they score in the red zone....who care how well Whats his name kicks FG's
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Re: Vikings

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:36 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:I guess that's what happens when they reach for a qb in the first round that would have been available in the third or fourth round.


Here's some interesting information on comparing Ponder to "Franchise QBs".

Class of 2012 - Luck #1 (2/4), Griffin III #2 (3/4), Tannehill 8 (3/4)
Class of 2011 - Newton #1 (3/4), Locker #8 (4/4), Gabbert #10 (3/4)
Class of 2010 - Bradford #1 (2/4)
Class of 2009 - Stafford #1 (2/4), Sanchez #5 (4/4)
In 4 QB categories, Yds, Completions, TDs, and INTs: Ponder is ahead of the QBs above a minimum of 2 of 4.

Is he really doing that bad or do you simply not like the guy?


There is WAY more to playing QB then those 4 stats, I would take him ahead of Gabbert, Locker and Sanchez. He could be a good starting QB, but I don't see him ever becoming an All-Pro.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:45 pm

winner-within wrote:Stats are one thing....But you cant squander a 5-1 record....the pressure lies on the QB, plain and simple and the coaches...the Vikes have to stay focused and Ponder has to make sure they score in the red zone....who care how well Whats his name kicks FG's


100% agree. But on this website, they were 5 - 1 in spite of Ponder and all their losses are because of Ponder.

The Schwab wrote:
There is WAY more to playing QB then those 4 stats, I would take him ahead of Gabbert, Locker and Sanchez. He could be a good starting QB, but I don't see him ever becoming an All-Pro.


Of course there is more to it. My point is you and a number of other people on this site say he was a 3rd or 4th round QB and yet he has numbers that compare to No. 1 picks. I used the stats to back up my opinion that he isn't that bad vs. people just saying he is terrible and the reason they are losing. Personally have never said he needs to be All-Pro, but if he could be a 65% passer with 24 TDs, 8 Ints I think the Vikes could do very well.
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Re: Vikings

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:57 pm

If you give Luck, RG3 or Stafford a runningback as talented as AP and they put up huge numbers because teams have to stack the box.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:29 pm

The Schwab wrote:If you give Luck, RG3 or Stafford a runningback as talented as AP and they put up huge numbers because teams have to stack the box.


Probably would. Give Ponder Reggie Wayne and Calvin Johnson.
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Re: Vikings

Postby packers21 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:33 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:If you give Luck, RG3 or Stafford a runningback as talented as AP and they put up huge numbers because teams have to stack the box.


Probably would. Give Ponder Reggie Wayne and Calvin Johnson.


Ponder has a top 5 WR....a top 5 WR...and a better O-line than they did 3 years ago...vikes will be lucky to finish 8-8..I dont hate Ponder I thought it was a bad pick 2 years ago...I still think its a bad pick...he cant go out and win a game and thats what the vikes need to make the playoffs in that divisions the next few years.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:58 pm

packers21 wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:If you give Luck, RG3 or Stafford a runningback as talented as AP and they put up huge numbers because teams have to stack the box.


Probably would. Give Ponder Reggie Wayne and Calvin Johnson.


Ponder has a top 5 WR....a top 5 WR...and a better O-line than they did 3 years ago...vikes will be lucky to finish 8-8..I dont hate Ponder I thought it was a bad pick 2 years ago...I still think its a bad pick...he cant go out and win a game and thats what the vikes need to make the playoffs in that divisions the next few years.

With all due respect, Percy Harvin is not a top 5 wr. He is a great utility receiver/football player. Plays the slot pretty well. He does not run precise routes. He gets open and does good things after the catch. Also, IMO, their line was better 3 years ago.
So, what was their options? Who should have they drafted? If they got Ponder in the 2nd or 3rd round then he would be ok as their QB? That would make a difference? Then he would be a good QB because they got him in the 2nd round?
The only other QB would have been Dalton whom I did like but he and Kaepernik went 35, 36 and the Vikes picked at 43 and got Rudolph.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Indy5 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:27 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:I guess that's what happens when they reach for a qb in the first round that would have been available in the third or fourth round.


Here's some interesting information on comparing Ponder to "Franchise QBs".

Class of 2012 - Luck #1 (2/4), Griffin III #2 (3/4), Tannehill 8 (3/4)
Class of 2011 - Newton #1 (3/4), Locker #8 (4/4), Gabbert #10 (3/4)
Class of 2010 - Bradford #1 (2/4)
Class of 2009 - Stafford #1 (2/4), Sanchez #5 (4/4)
In 4 QB categories, Yds, Completions, TDs, and INTs: Ponder is ahead of the QBs above a minimum of 2 of 4.

Is he really doing that bad or do you simply not like the guy?

As others have said, it's not all about stats. The eye test is more important. You can't argue that Percy is an elite receiver. His only problem is he's hurt a lot. Out of that list, I only take him over Sanchez and Locker. I could also note that a couple of those guys are reaches as well, but I guess that happens when you need a franchise QB.
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Re: Vikings

Postby Flip » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:36 pm

Indy5 wrote:As others have said, it's not all about stats. The eye test is more important. You can't argue that Percy is an elite receiver. His only problem is he's hurt a lot. Out of that list, I only take him over Sanchez and Locker. I could also note that a couple of those guys are reaches as well, but I guess that happens when you need a franchise QB.

4th year in the league and he's missed 4 games.

Also, he's definitely a top 5 WR IMO. Isn't it Kenny Albert that always says if he were starting a team the first offensive player he would take is Harvin, not counting QBs.

Also, the Vikings were never 5-1 this season.
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