Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

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Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:59 pm

I know this is in MN, but what are your thoughts on this situation?
I know that there have been some situations similar in ND.
Thoughts???

http://www.inforum.com/sports/4241964-f ... n-football
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:40 pm

Guess No one has any thoughts..

Could be a realistic situation in ND in a couple of years..
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:10 pm

Don't you have to assume it's happening right now?
OG has bounced between A and 9 man. I'm sure they have foreign exchange students too. I've never heard them p*ss and moan. I'm pretty sure Bishop Ryan and Dickinson Trinity have opted up in prior years. According the enrollment numbers Park Christian, also a private school, has 60 less kids and they're in the same section. Hillcrest needs to quit whining.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby cmplx6 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:04 pm

Amen. I think the more realistic move is that the majority of these Co-Ops in North Dakota break up and the start a 6-man division. I personally think this would be so much better for these schools then to commute in some cases 1 hour every day for practice.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:33 pm

Flip wrote:Don't you have to assume it's happening right now?
OG has bounced between A and 9 man. I'm sure they have foreign exchange students too. I've never heard them p*ss and moan. I'm pretty sure Bishop Ryan and Dickinson Trinity have opted up in prior years. According the enrollment numbers Park Christian, also a private school, has 60 less kids and they're in the same section. Hillcrest needs to quit whining.


I don't know if I would say it's whining, but more of just being real with their circumstances. If they only have 12 - 15 kids on their roster, how would they be expected to compete in a 11 man league?

The fact that most public schools can lower their number by virtue of them having free and reduced lunch kids, shouldn't the same be said for private schools that have foreign exchange students? I would guess, that based on where the kids come from, there isn't many foreign exchange students that are coming from areas that Football is the main sport, so the likelihood of them playing football in the states, isn't that great. I would only guess that most of the private schools aren't getting a large number of kids that qualify for free and reduced lunch, so they are not seeing any kind of "break" for their kids.

Park Christian had to shut down their program last year because of lack of numbers. Not much they could do, because they are already at the 9 man level, but imagine if they had to play 11 man..

You bring up Oak Grove, Bishop Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity... Which really proves that you have to take a look into the "numbers" a little deeper. I know that it's hard for the NDHSAA to seem fair to all, but not having a blanket number, but it would seem that you have to look at each individual school and see what's really going on there. (Other Fall sports, foreign exchange students, etc.)
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:15 pm

magic man wrote:I don't know if I would say it's whining, but more of just being real with their circumstances. If they only have 12 - 15 kids on their roster, how would they be expected to compete in a 11 man league?

Where are you getting this 12-15 number? Their coach said he had 12 guys he felt "comfortable" playing. Many coaches don't have 12 kids he feels comfortable playing. I've witnessed it and been a part of it. My last two seasons of HS football he didn't have 1 practice where we could scrimmage 9 on 9.

Park Christian had to shut down their program last year because of lack of numbers. Not much they could do, because they are already at the 9 man level, but imagine if they had to play 11 man..

Did you not comprehend my post? I said PC is playing 11 man next year.

The fact that most public schools can lower their number by virtue of them having free and reduced lunch kids, shouldn't the same be said for private schools that have foreign exchange students? I would guess, that based on where the kids come from, there isn't many foreign exchange students that are coming from areas that Football is the main sport, so the likelihood of them playing football in the states, isn't that great. I would only guess that most of the private schools aren't getting a large number of kids that qualify for free and reduced lunch, so they are not seeing any kind of "break" for their kids.

Hillcrest's enrollment isn't like borderline 9 man/Class A, they're actually closer to AA than 9 man.

You bring up Oak Grove, Bishop Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity... Which really proves that you have to take a look into the "numbers" a little deeper. I know that it's hard for the NDHSAA to seem fair to all, but not having a blanket number, but it would seem that you have to look at each individual school and see what's really going on there. (Other Fall sports, foreign exchange students, etc.)

Not really sure where you're going with this do we actually know what's going on at Hillcrest. I know their coach says they have 60 foreign exchange students, but I don't know how accurate that number is.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:14 pm

Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:I don't know if I would say it's whining, but more of just being real with their circumstances. If they only have 12 - 15 kids on their roster, how would they be expected to compete in a 11 man league?

Where are you getting this 12-15 number? Their coach said he had 12 guys he felt "comfortable" playing. Many coaches don't have 12 kids he feels comfortable playing. I've witnessed it and been a part of it. My last two seasons of HS football he didn't have 1 practice where we could scrimmage 9 on 9.

Park Christian had to shut down their program last year because of lack of numbers. Not much they could do, because they are already at the 9 man level, but imagine if they had to play 11 man..

Did you not comprehend my post? I said PC is playing 11 man next year.

The fact that most public schools can lower their number by virtue of them having free and reduced lunch kids, shouldn't the same be said for private schools that have foreign exchange students? I would guess, that based on where the kids come from, there isn't many foreign exchange students that are coming from areas that Football is the main sport, so the likelihood of them playing football in the states, isn't that great. I would only guess that most of the private schools aren't getting a large number of kids that qualify for free and reduced lunch, so they are not seeing any kind of "break" for their kids.

Hillcrest's enrollment isn't like borderline 9 man/Class A, they're actually closer to AA than 9 man.

You bring up Oak Grove, Bishop Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity... Which really proves that you have to take a look into the "numbers" a little deeper. I know that it's hard for the NDHSAA to seem fair to all, but not having a blanket number, but it would seem that you have to look at each individual school and see what's really going on there. (Other Fall sports, foreign exchange students, etc.)

Not really sure where you're going with this do we actually know what's going on at Hillcrest. I know their coach says they have 60 foreign exchange students, but I don't know how accurate that number is.


There's confusion about where PC is playing...they are under the 9-man requirement but listed in 11-man A...article about area reclassification stated from Coach/school that they were still 9-man...
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:07 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:There's confusion about where PC is playing...they are under the 9-man requirement but listed in 11-man A...article about area reclassification stated from Coach/school that they were still 9-man...

It wouldn't make sense for them to move up to A. I was going off what was on the MSHSL page. My fault.

I saw one other oddity with 6A football. Ottertail Central is in 6A, but their enrollment well above the A cutoff.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:40 pm

Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:There's confusion about where PC is playing...they are under the 9-man requirement but listed in 11-man A...article about area reclassification stated from Coach/school that they were still 9-man...

It wouldn't make sense for them to move up to A. I was going off what was on the MSHSL page. My fault.

I saw one other oddity with 6A football. Ottertail Central is in 6A, but their enrollment well above the A cutoff.


What's odd is that Park Christian is 118 and MSHSL has them in 6A...but NCE/UH combined in 150 and playing in Section 6 9-Man...now I know free & reduced lunch numbers effect the classification (too bad they don't show that number...or at least I haven't found it yet)...and NCE/UH's number definitely will change...but by that much...I don't know. Some things just seem odd with how MSHSL did the re-classification
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:30 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:What's odd is that Park Christian is 118 and MSHSL has them in 6A...but NCE/UH combined in 150 and playing in Section 6 9-Man...now I know free & reduced lunch numbers effect the classification (too bad they don't show that number...or at least I haven't found it yet)...and NCE/UH's number definitely will change...but by that much...I don't know. Some things just seem odd with how MSHSL did the re-classification

Almost positive F&R is already factored into the posted enrollment numbers. Mahnomen is listed at like 110 and I think they're actual enrollment is a lot bigger. Mahnomen and Fertile-Beltrami have always opted-up in the past.

I thought you said PC being in 6A was a mistake.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:09 pm

Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:What's odd is that Park Christian is 118 and MSHSL has them in 6A...but NCE/UH combined in 150 and playing in Section 6 9-Man...now I know free & reduced lunch numbers effect the classification (too bad they don't show that number...or at least I haven't found it yet)...and NCE/UH's number definitely will change...but by that much...I don't know. Some things just seem odd with how MSHSL did the re-classification

Almost positive F&R is already factored into the posted enrollment numbers. Mahnomen is listed at like 110 and I think they're actual enrollment is a lot bigger. Mahnomen and Fertile-Beltrami have always opted-up in the past.

I thought you said PC being in 6A was a mistake.


That's where the confusion is...MSHSL has it one way and and Coach/school have said the other...hard to imagine a school that cancelled their previous season of 9-man would have to move up to 11-man
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:34 pm

Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:I don't know if I would say it's whining, but more of just being real with their circumstances. If they only have 12 - 15 kids on their roster, how would they be expected to compete in a 11 man league?

Where are you getting this 12-15 number? Their coach said he had 12 guys he felt "comfortable" playing. Many coaches don't have 12 kids he feels comfortable playing. I've witnessed it and been a part of it. My last two seasons of HS football he didn't have 1 practice where we could scrimmage 9 on 9.

I would venture to guess that the ones that he is comfortable in playing at the varsity level, are Juniors/Seniors. There are some occasions in which freshmen/sophomores are ready to physically play varsity sports, but there is a reason why you have JV. I would wonder if they can even play JV?
Park Christian had to shut down their program last year because of lack of numbers. Not much they could do, because they are already at the 9 man level, but imagine if they had to play 11 man..

Did you not comprehend my post? I said PC is playing 11 man next year.

Incorrect.. They are still trying to get a 9 man team together. Did you not comprehend that they had to shut down their program last year at the 9 man level? http://www.inforum.com/sports/4116949-fearing-player-safety-park-christian-high-school-cancels-varsity-football-season
They were using 8th graders to fill out their roster to be able to play games.


The fact that most public schools can lower their number by virtue of them having free and reduced lunch kids, shouldn't the same be said for private schools that have foreign exchange students? I would guess, that based on where the kids come from, there isn't many foreign exchange students that are coming from areas that Football is the main sport, so the likelihood of them playing football in the states, isn't that great. I would only guess that most of the private schools aren't getting a large number of kids that qualify for free and reduced lunch, so they are not seeing any kind of "break" for their kids.


Hillcrest's enrollment isn't like borderline 9 man/Class A, they're actually closer to AA than 9 man.

Numbers don't always tell the truth in what the make up of the kids are there. There are varying reasons why parents put their kids in private schools. Contrary to the belief of those that hate private schools, some do it for smaller class sizes and special programs that aren't focused on in public schools. Not just for sports.


You bring up Oak Grove, Bishop Minot Ryan and Dickinson Trinity... Which really proves that you have to take a look into the "numbers" a little deeper. I know that it's hard for the NDHSAA to seem fair to all, but not having a blanket number, but it would seem that you have to look at each individual school and see what's really going on there. (Other Fall sports, foreign exchange students, etc.)


Not really sure where you're going with this do we actually know what's going on at Hillcrest. I know their coach says they have 60 foreign exchange students, but I don't know how accurate that number is.

Of course this could be exaggerated, but assuming it's correct, I would guess that 1-3 might play football.
Maybe his number is including female students? Not sure.. Just going based on what he stated.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:29 pm

There is absolutely some hate that goes towards private schools, I don't hate them. I hate Hillcrest's whining. There are many football teams that would trade their problems for Hillcrest's.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby wan2bqb » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:47 am

Does the coach realize how many team have to play freshman "that aren't ready". Give me a break, if you have 178 boys, even if 60 of the are foreign exchange students that leaves you with 118 to build a team. I can name three schools off the top of my head that spent much of the last 10 years playing 11 man and being competitive with enrollments under 70 because they chose to opt up and stay in the region they normally play in, Velva, LHMB, and M-NS. In the last 11 years they have 10 Championship appearances between them all while opting up due to declining enrollments. Two of them have since dropped to 9 man for the last couple of years. And M-NS added a SC program which couldn't field a team for next year and that brings them up to 107. Build a program man. Class A 11 man Region 1 does not have a team above 107 kids and the smallest is Northern Cass with 76. struggle it up, build your program and take your lumps like the rest of the world.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:18 am

The enrollment numbers used in MN are for total students not just male enrollment...just to clear that confusion
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby wan2bqb » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:18 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:The enrollment numbers used in MN are for total students not just male enrollment..,just to clear that confusion


Well that would be a completely different story possibly. Do we know their male enrollment?
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:34 am

wan2bqb wrote:Well that would be a completely different story possibly. Do we know their male enrollment?

It's fair to assume it's ~50% of total enrollment IMO.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:43 pm

Flip wrote:
wan2bqb wrote:Well that would be a completely different story possibly. Do we know their male enrollment?

It's fair to assume it's ~50% of total enrollment IMO.


If we're assuming... Let's say that of they have 89 boys... 30 of which are foreign exchange kids.. Leaves you at 59... I'm not sure if they have any other Fall Male sports.. Cross Country?? Soccer?? Tennis??? I would assume yes, since it's a private school.. So you lose another..... 25 - 30 boys, but you're probably getting a few of those foreign exchange students to participate in those other fall sports.

Of those schools that you mentioned, that have low male numbers (MNS, Velva, Region 1, etc), I would ask if they have the other fall sports that are mentioned??
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:13 pm

Soccer is a key fall sport for Hillcrest...most foreign exchange students would likely be in that sport! But they have XC as well...not sure on others
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:17 pm

Does anyone know if they factor other fall sports into the numbers in ND?
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:25 pm

magic man wrote:Does anyone know if they factor other fall sports into the numbers in ND?


They do not...they just use male enrollment numbers for grades 7-10 and factor in the free & reduced lunches multiplier.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:19 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
magic man wrote:Does anyone know if they factor other fall sports into the numbers in ND?


They do not...they just use male enrollment numbers for grades 7-10 and factor in the free & reduced lunches multiplier.



For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby The Schwab » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:35 pm

magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
magic man wrote:Does anyone know if they factor other fall sports into the numbers in ND?


They do not...they just use male enrollment numbers for grades 7-10 and factor in the free & reduced lunches multiplier.



For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?


How could you come up with a fair multiplier that takes into account the number of sports offered? Even if you could the NDHSAA wouldn't go for it, for cripes sake we can't even get a 3 class system passed for basketball when 14 of the 16 districts support it.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:32 pm

magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:49 pm

Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.


Essentially magic man there is no easy fix to anything you've suggested or criticized...right now ND has gone with a plan and really the only private school that really has been affected is OG. OG has been AA, A & 9-man over the past decade. Yes they have several fall sport opportunities with their coops with Shanley; they also have foreign exchange students (not nearly as many as Hillcrest)...but they haven't been out there whining about any disadvantages towards them...they just go about their task at hand...preparing their team for next year.
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