Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:31 pm

The Schwab wrote:
magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
magic man wrote:Does anyone know if they factor other fall sports into the numbers in ND?


They do not...they just use male enrollment numbers for grades 7-10 and factor in the free & reduced lunches multiplier.



For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?


How could you come up with a fair multiplier that takes into account the number of sports offered? Even if you could the NDHSAA wouldn't go for it, for cripes sake we can't even get a 3 class system passed for basketball when 14 of the 16 districts support it.


I guess the same way they came up with a multiplier for free and reduced lunch students.

No comment on their lack of creating a 3 class system. Haha
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.


What have I understood? That's funny coming from you considering you were the one confused at the beginning of this conversation.

To answer your extreme case question, no.. you don't get to drop a class based on a school having one kid running cross country, that's a crazy statement, that no one is saying... But I find it hard to understand why other SPORTS, not other school activities, aren't taken into consideration when counting the number of males at a school.

Let's say Kindred has 50 males in grades 7 - 10, and they have soccer, cross country and tennis..(Boys)... and then you have Hillsboro, who has those same 50 boys, but they don't have those other activities. Are you saying itsomething fair to look at those 2 schools the same when classifying them for football?

And why not get a better understanding of what's happening, before coming up with a plan? I'm not criticizing I'm trying to understand what actually goes on.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:17 pm

magic man wrote:To answer your extreme case question, no.. you don't get to drop a class based on a school having one kid running cross country, that's a crazy statement, that no one is saying... But I find it hard to understand why other SPORTS, not other school activities, aren't taken into consideration when counting the number of males at a school.

ok so if one kid running cross country can't drop you class in FB what about 2? maybe 3? what's the cutoff?
why only sports and not activities? they're both sponsored by the NDHSAA.

Let's say Kindred has 50 males in grades 7 - 10, and they have soccer, cross country and tennis..(Boys)... and then you have Hillsboro, who has those same 50 boys, but they don't have those other activities. Are you saying itsomething fair to look at those 2 schools the same when classifying them for football?

This is the fairest way I can come think of.

And why not get a better understanding of what's happening, before coming up with a plan? I'm not criticizing I'm trying to understand what actually goes on.

what is there to understand about the plan? there is nothing confusing about it.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:01 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.


Essentially magic man there is no easy fix to anything you've suggested or criticized...right now ND has gone with a plan and really the only private school that really has been affected is OG. OG has been AA, A & 9-man over the past decade. Yes they have several fall sport opportunities with their coops with Shanley; they also have foreign exchange students (not nearly as many as Hillcrest)...but they haven't been out there whining about any disadvantages towards them...they just go about their task at hand...preparing their team for next year.

If some of the Rumblings are true, and Oak Grove ends up in 2A with the next realignment, we'll see if they complain or not. :D
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:14 pm

Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:To answer your extreme case question, no.. you don't get to drop a class based on a school having one kid running cross country, that's a crazy statement, that no one is saying... But I find it hard to understand why other SPORTS, not other school activities, aren't taken into consideration when counting the number of males at a school.

ok so if one kid running cross country can't drop you class in FB what about 2? maybe 3? what's the cutoff?
why only sports and not activities? they're both sponsored by the NDHSAA.

The NDHSAA, doesn't sponsor a drama club, if I'm not mistaken, but if they are, then I stand corrected.
You're taking this to the extreme and talking about dropping a school a class when all I'm asking is if they give a lower head count for lunch purposes, then you could do something similar for a school with other sports for males during that same time. 50 boys at a school with 3 other fall male sports, isn't the same as one without those male fall sports.. The one without, does not have the same pool to pull from.


Let's say Kindred has 50 males in grades 7 - 10, and they have soccer, cross country and tennis..(Boys)... and then you have Hillsboro, who has those same 50 boys, but they don't have those other activities. Are you saying it's fair to look at those 2 schools the same when classifying them for football?

This is the fairest way I can come think of.
not that it matters in the big picture, but we differ on this.
As I said earlier, they lower a schools number based on free and reduced lunch, so they can look at it the same way for other fall sports..

I think I read on here that a kid is counted as a half of a kid, when talking about reduced lunch...why not do the same for a school with an opposing male fall sport or foreign exchange students?

And why not get a better understanding of what's happening, before coming up with a plan? I'm not criticizing I'm trying to understand what actually goes on.

what is there to understand about the plan? there is nothing confusing about it.


I think you missed the point of me saying this. It's okay.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Flip » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:14 pm

you don't like the current system, come up with an alternative. "Something similar" is not a plan.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:59 pm

magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.


Essentially magic man there is no easy fix to anything you've suggested or criticized...right now ND has gone with a plan and really the only private school that really has been affected is OG. OG has been AA, A & 9-man over the past decade. Yes they have several fall sport opportunities with their coops with Shanley; they also have foreign exchange students (not nearly as many as Hillcrest)...but they haven't been out there whining about any disadvantages towards them...they just go about their task at hand...preparing their team for next year.

If some of the Rumblings are true, and Oak Grove ends up in 2A with the next realignment, we'll see if they complain or not. :D


They won't be 2A again unless they add a coop team...
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:57 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.


Essentially magic man there is no easy fix to anything you've suggested or criticized...right now ND has gone with a plan and really the only private school that really has been affected is OG. OG has been AA, A & 9-man over the past decade. Yes they have several fall sport opportunities with their coops with Shanley; they also have foreign exchange students (not nearly as many as Hillcrest)...but they haven't been out there whining about any disadvantages towards them...they just go about their task at hand...preparing their team for next year.

If some of the Rumblings are true, and Oak Grove ends up in 2A with the next realignment, we'll see if they complain or not. :D


They won't be 2A again unless they add a coop team...


A game hasn't even been played and there are already rumblings in 2A about complaints of travel, with them only having 10 teams. (Ex: Traveling from Wahp to Watford, every other year). They went from 16 teams down to 10. A mistake if you ask me, but when you have a bunch of public schools whining about being competitive in 2A, they get their wishes after a while.

The other rumblings are that they are looking at taking teams from 1A to move back or up to 2A... There are about 6 teams right in the same range of player totals, Oak Grove being one of them. If the NDHSAA does decide to increase 2A, they won't be able to pull from 3A, so they will pull from 1A.. How many they pull will be the big question.

Looking at the 2017-18 plan, they rank 4th in enrollment. (Beulah, New Town, Park River FL, and Oak Grove).
Again, assuming that all the rumblings are true, they are going to have to expand 2A.
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:04 am

magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.


Essentially magic man there is no easy fix to anything you've suggested or criticized...right now ND has gone with a plan and really the only private school that really has been affected is OG. OG has been AA, A & 9-man over the past decade. Yes they have several fall sport opportunities with their coops with Shanley; they also have foreign exchange students (not nearly as many as Hillcrest)...but they haven't been out there whining about any disadvantages towards them...they just go about their task at hand...preparing their team for next year.

If some of the Rumblings are true, and Oak Grove ends up in 2A with the next realignment, we'll see if they complain or not. :D


They won't be 2A again unless they add a coop team...


A game hasn't even been played and there are already rumblings in 2A about complaints of travel, with them only having 10 teams. (Ex: Traveling from Wahp to Watford, every other year). They went from 16 teams down to 10. A mistake if you ask me, but when you have a bunch of public schools whining about being competitive in 2A, they get their wishes after a while.

The other rumblings are that they are looking at taking teams from 1A to move back or up to 2A... There are about 6 teams right in the same range of player totals, Oak Grove being one of them. If the NDHSAA does decide to increase 2A, they won't be able to pull from 3A, so they will pull from 1A.. How many they pull will be the big question.

Looking at the 2017-18 plan, they rank 4th in enrollment. (Beulah, New Town, Park River FL, and Oak Grove).
Again, assuming that all the rumblings are true, they are going to have to expand 2A.


2 years from now...enrollments change and systems used can change

If PC ever coops with OG again then they will inevitably have to move up...but I don't see them making a school that has less than 100 males move up to AA...their enrollment number won't change much on their own

Other schools are growing, especially out west, so to make assumptions 2 years down the road is bold but I can guarantee won't be accurate
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:15 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:For real? Well, how is that fair? You have to look at the fact that some schools have other fall sports that can pull away from the number of male athletes that might play football, no?

Am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? what have you actually understood would be the better question.

What if you have one kid run cross country should you be able to drop a class in FB because of that? What about non athletic activities? Come up with an alternative plan before you criticize the current one.


Essentially magic man there is no easy fix to anything you've suggested or criticized...right now ND has gone with a plan and really the only private school that really has been affected is OG. OG has been AA, A & 9-man over the past decade. Yes they have several fall sport opportunities with their coops with Shanley; they also have foreign exchange students (not nearly as many as Hillcrest)...but they haven't been out there whining about any disadvantages towards them...they just go about their task at hand...preparing their team for next year.

If some of the Rumblings are true, and Oak Grove ends up in 2A with the next realignment, we'll see if they complain or not. :D


They won't be 2A again unless they add a coop team...


A game hasn't even been played and there are already rumblings in 2A about complaints of travel, with them only having 10 teams. (Ex: Traveling from Wahp to Watford, every other year). They went from 16 teams down to 10. A mistake if you ask me, but when you have a bunch of public schools whining about being competitive in 2A, they get their wishes after a while.

The other rumblings are that they are looking at taking teams from 1A to move back or up to 2A... There are about 6 teams right in the same range of player totals, Oak Grove being one of them. If the NDHSAA does decide to increase 2A, they won't be able to pull from 3A, so they will pull from 1A.. How many they pull will be the big question.

Looking at the 2017-18 plan, they rank 4th in enrollment. (Beulah, New Town, Park River FL, and Oak Grove).
Again, assuming that all the rumblings are true, they are going to have to expand 2A.


2 years from now...enrollments change and systems used can change

If PC ever coops with OG again then they will inevitably have to move up...but I don't see them making a school that has less than 100 males move up to AA...their enrollment number won't change much on their own

Other schools are growing, especially out west, so to make assumptions 2 years down the road is bold but I can guarantee won't be accurate


True on some accounts.
Unless you're on that board deciding how enrollment is judged (which you could be and I'm not familiar with it), and/or you know the numbers of the kids in 5/6 grades for all of the schools, then you can't guarantee that either. ("their enrollment number won't change much on their own" - comment)

We will see. 2A (in my humble opinion) will increase their number of teams, and I don't see them coming from 3A.

What are your views on the number of teams in 2A now vs the number of teams in 1A? Do you think any changes need to be made? If so, what kind?
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:30 am

I guess we need to see how a season goes before we can use the 'team numbers between AA & A' argument. So I have no stance until a season is played and we get an idea on travel (which I know will be a lot for them) and other aspects.

My comment on "their enrollment number won't change much" is factual with OG...they'll stay about the same...their male enrollment hasn't changed that drastically over the past couple of seasons...the NDHSAA cutline for A & 9-man shifted slightly for the one plan that they dropped down...only reason they were AA was because of PC (and PC bailed on the coop in between plans). IF OG would have to go to AA...THEN they would have a gripe like Hillcrest has right now because 18-20 kids is not enough to play AA in ND...they can manage it in Class A.

Several variables can and will change in football when the next plan is created...for all schools!
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:26 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:I guess we need to see how a season goes before we can use the 'team numbers between AA & A' argument. So I have no stance until a season is played and we get an idea on travel (which I know will be a lot for them) and other aspects.

My comment on "their enrollment number won't change much" is factual with OG...they'll stay about the same...their male enrollment hasn't changed that drastically over the past couple of seasons...the NDHSAA cutline for A & 9-man shifted slightly for the one plan that they dropped down...only reason they were AA was because of PC (and PC bailed on the coop in between plans). IF OG would have to go to AA...THEN they would have a gripe like Hillcrest has right now because 18-20 kids is not enough to play AA in ND...they can manage it in Class A.

Several variables can and will change in football when the next plan is created...for all schools!



What is the male student enrollment for Oak Grove from the 5th thru 8th grade right now and their projections for the next few years?
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:41 pm

magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:I guess we need to see how a season goes before we can use the 'team numbers between AA & A' argument. So I have no stance until a season is played and we get an idea on travel (which I know will be a lot for them) and other aspects.

My comment on "their enrollment number won't change much" is factual with OG...they'll stay about the same...their male enrollment hasn't changed that drastically over the past couple of seasons...the NDHSAA cutline for A & 9-man shifted slightly for the one plan that they dropped down...only reason they were AA was because of PC (and PC bailed on the coop in between plans). IF OG would have to go to AA...THEN they would have a gripe like Hillcrest has right now because 18-20 kids is not enough to play AA in ND...they can manage it in Class A.

Several variables can and will change in football when the next plan is created...for all schools!



What is the male student enrollment for Oak Grove from the 5th thru 8th grade right now and their projections for the next few years?


That depends on how their "recruiting" goes. :)
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Re: Hillcrest Moves to 11 Man. Could This Happen in ND??

Postby magic man » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:22 pm

Sportsrube wrote:
magic man wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:I guess we need to see how a season goes before we can use the 'team numbers between AA & A' argument. So I have no stance until a season is played and we get an idea on travel (which I know will be a lot for them) and other aspects.

My comment on "their enrollment number won't change much" is factual with OG...they'll stay about the same...their male enrollment hasn't changed that drastically over the past couple of seasons...the NDHSAA cutline for A & 9-man shifted slightly for the one plan that they dropped down...only reason they were AA was because of PC (and PC bailed on the coop in between plans). IF OG would have to go to AA...THEN they would have a gripe like Hillcrest has right now because 18-20 kids is not enough to play AA in ND...they can manage it in Class A.

Several variables can and will change in football when the next plan is created...for all schools!



What is the male student enrollment for Oak Grove from the 5th thru 8th grade right now and their projections for the next few years?


That depends on how their "recruiting" goes. :)


Recruiting? That's so old and played out.

I would guess they would have, as you say, recruited better than what they've shown on the football field in the last 5-7 years.
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