Another Run at 10-10-10

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Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Tue May 26, 2015 10:15 am

With football three months away, and a new plan set to hit us, I'm running this up the flagpole again.

I favor more classes, not less, with tighter enrollment cutoffs. I spoke with one AD recently that also expressed a system based on enrollment cutoffs and an additional class, similar to South Dakota's system. Their top class, according to this AD, is all Sioux Falls and Rapid City, and has very few teams, but they fit in the enrollment band.

I sat down with the numbers, and looked at the enrollment band scenario. I saw really solid evidence for a 5-class system of 500 and above, 150-499, 100-149, and so on. The problem was where to draw the line on the final two classes, and I felt there were too many teams in that group to make them all play 9-man.

So, I went back to my 10-10 plan, and expanded it to three divisions of 10 teams. The theory being 9 games, everyone plays each other, top 8 make the playoffs, same amount of weeks as we have now. Fourth class is 20 teams, split into four regions. Opt ups allowed, no opt-downs in any class. Rest is 9-man.

I like exactly where it ended up:

4A:

Minot (1085)
West Fargo
Century
Bismarck
Davies
Red River
South
Mandan
Williston
GF Central (500)

3A:

North (489)
WF Sheyenne
Dickinson
Bismarck Legacy
Jamestown
Devils Lake
Wahpeton
Watford City
Belcourt
St. Marys (154)

2A:

Grafton (152)
Valley City
Shanley
Beulah
Central Cass
Stanley
Griggs-Barnes
Dickinson Trinity
Lisbon
Enderlin-Maple Valley

1A: (20 teams)

Kindred
Hillsboro
Wells County
Berthold
Des Lacs-Burlington
Bottineau
Ellendale-Edgeley-Kulm
Park River-F-L
Standing Rock
Belfield-South Heart
Hazen
Garrison-Max
Washburn-Wilton
Carrington
Rugby
Velva-Sawyer
Larimore
Lakota-Edmore-Dakota Prairie
Minot Ryan
Oak Grove

Assuming the current "opt-ups" joined this class: Add Northern Cass, Milnor-North Sargent, Oakes, Langdon, Westhope-Newberg, Glenburn, Killdeer

Regions:

1: Kindred, Hillsboro, Ellendale-Edgeley-Kulm, Oak Grove, Northern Cass, Milnor-North Sargent, Oakes
2: Wells County, Park River-F-L, Carrington, Larimore, Lakota-Edmore-Dakota Prairie, Langdon
3: Berthold, Des Lacs-Burlington, Bottineau, Rugby, Velva-Sawyer, Minot Ryan, Westhope-Newberg-Glenburn
4: Standing Rock, Belfield-South Heart, Hazen, Garrison-Max, Washburn-Wilton, Killdeer

You can slice and dice this all you want, but geography is not an acceptable argument against this plan. Geography is an argument against any plan, period. In football, you travel five times once, and four times the next year. These trips are easily accommodated.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue May 26, 2015 12:35 pm

To me, it does not make any sense to have some Fargo and Bismarck public schools, along with Dickinson, outside of the highest class. Enrollments are all too similar even if some are just below the 500. Our state has 14 schools that belong together at the top, but after that it can be sliced and diced many different ways and there will still be people unhappy.

The biggest change that needs to happen is an enrollment percentage for schools with coops. It go suggested in district meetings this year and may be looked at before the next plan goes into effect. Central Dakota, Enderlin-Maple Valley, Hillsboro-CV do not belong in a class with Grafton, VC, Central Cass, Beulah, etc. where Kindred, DL-B, Botno, Rugby, etc. are all much better fits.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Tue May 26, 2015 12:44 pm

No, no, no, no, no, who's to say they are better fits?

325 is 325.

325 is 325.

325 is 325.

A kid is a kid. Count them all.

The three teams you mentioned are in CO-OPS. If it's not working, dissolve your co-op. Otherwise, make it work.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue May 26, 2015 1:22 pm

I agree with dissolve or rework the coop to end up playing in a class that fits better, but there is no doubt participation declines in coops due to the distance involved just for practices. Some of these schools have nowhere else to go either.

H-CV had 44 kids out for fball, but they are only 7 miles apart. Central Dakota had 30, E-MV 26, and EEK (close to the cutoff for AA) had 26. On the other hand, Rugby had 38, Larimore 40, DLB 34, Hazen 33. No coop, more kids able to participate and just a few kids can make a big difference in being able to compete.

You're telling me Fargo North doesn't belong with GF Central at just 11 kids apart (which could easily change in the next two years), but does belong with St. Marys' 300+ kids fewer? And before you throw out Minot at 1085 compared to 489, they are an outlier since they won't build another school up there. Even one of those other teams in the top class are less than 700
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Wed May 27, 2015 9:09 am

Just so we're on the same page, would you make the same argument in basketball if/when Central Cass hit an enrollment of 314, 11 shy of the cutoff? Would you then say that the separation is not enough to warrant playing in a different class?

I mean, let's be honest, Casselton is basically West-West-West Fargo (with Kindred being West-West Fargo).

Answer: You absolutely would not make the same argument. You would say, "325 is the number. Until they are at 325, they are Class B."

My point: If we were going to set up a group of enrollment "bands" for classification of football, it is HIGHLY logical that 500 and above would be a class. Not 489, but 500.

Now, you want to play the game in reverse, and basically say that close is close enough. Your Class B hypocrisy sure reeks today.

We already have several examples of schools in the same town playing in different classes. Fargo, Bismarck, Minot, Dickinson, Williston all have this phenomenon playing out. Why should it be any different if North and Davies were in different classes?

Your argument eluded to like-sized schools as a formula for forming a class. Wow, wish I had you on the bandwagon 10 years ago. We'd have that middle class of basketball with, say, Shanley, St. Marys, Trinity, Ryan, Grafton, Valley City, Wahpeton, Devils Lake, Central Cass, Kindred, Oak Grove, Watford City, Beulah, Hazen, Bottineau, Rugby, etc. etc.

You can't have it both ways. If you favor like-sized schools as a class, you are sold on three classes. If you don't, then you favor cutoffs, and you don't get to move the number by 11 students to accommodate your fascination with other factors.

Speaking of other factors, how many do you want to include? You speak of geography, like-sized schools, percentage of participation. I've heard funds, and facilities, and all sorts of excuses given.

I'm willing to accommodate your effort to find a formula that works as long as you budge on that same formula playing out in basketball (and the rest).

Till then, it's either a number in a class (top 10, top 12, top 16), or its enrollment (500 and above as an example). You don't get to bend things a little bit to make a really good decision.

After all, you hated that when the NDHSAA actually did that and moved Valley City to B.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed May 27, 2015 10:06 am

heimer wrote:Just so we're on the same page, would you make the same argument in basketball if/when Central Cass hit an enrollment of 314, 11 shy of the cutoff? Would you then say that the separation is not enough to warrant playing in a different class?

I mean, let's be honest, Casselton is basically West-West-West Fargo (with Kindred being West-West Fargo).

Answer: You absolutely would not make the same argument. You would say, "325 is the number. Until they are at 325, they are Class B."


No I am not in favor of an enrollment cutoff for any sport. I believe in setting a number of teams for each division in an effort to group like schools together. If we stay two classes in bball, I believe the top class should be 20, 24, or 32 go from there. The 325 number is outdated and does not align well with the population distribution of ND. With the way ND population is distributed right now, I do believe a 3 class system is better suited to the state, just not using enrollment cutoffs to determine the size of each class.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed May 27, 2015 10:10 am

heimer wrote:We already have several examples of schools in the same town playing in different classes. Fargo, Bismarck, Minot, Dickinson, Williston all have this phenomenon playing out. Why should it be any different if North and Davies were in different classes?


You also have public vs. private in this case you state. St. Mary's and Shanley with a total HS enrollment of 300 vs. BHS, Century, Legacy is very different than Fargo North vs South, WF Sheyenne vs, WF, Legacy vs BHS/Century, etc. Not even to mention Ryan, Trinity, and Trinity Christian.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Wed May 27, 2015 10:35 am

Public vs. private aside, your embracing of a three-class system is refreshing.

Now, back to the show.

This thread is about 10-10-10. I'm still struggling with your problem with this plan. You are unhappy about North not being in the same class as south, but you want to make exceptions for co-ops that are ill-fated and ill-planned.

I'm not surprised that the E-MV co-op is struggling. MV did their own thing, when they were full of athletes and winning. They had co-oped with VC, and dumped them for their own team. From the information I've heard from EXTREMELY good sources behind the scenes, this co-op is a marriage basically staying together because divorce is more scary, not because they love being married. And that's when they were A, not 2A.

So we alter the system for them?

Central Dakota was a 2400 square mile co-op before the addition of the remnants of Carrington divorcing PBK. Look at the history. GCC and FS didn't get along. BCN didn't get numbers at the 9-man level.

Now, we're supposed to change a system for them?

Hillsboro is in a crappy situation altogether. That being said, they didn't have to take on Central Valley.
Central Valley would have 33 as their boys population. That would be tiny, but not the smallest, 9-man team in the state. Other schools have the same problems.

The system doesn't change for Sargent Central, or Center-Stanton, or Strasburg-Zeeland, or Tri-County, or Ray. They are all below 40 kids.

Listen, it's not like I don't have a heart. I feel for all of these communities involved. But the facts are that I had to listen to the statement, "We don't change a system for one school" for years while in Valley City.

In the three examples you have me, I can only find one school with a significant problem, that being Central Valley. The Griggs-Midkota co-op is listed at 53 kids. The BCN co-op is listed at 35, and the PBK co-op is listed at 46. Enderlin has 55, and Maple Valley has 48. All of these co-ops would be larger than the smallest three 9-man schools, and, based on the current numbers, anywhere in the 40s and above is a healthy 9-man situation.

We don't change the system for one school. I heard it for years. It was tried and rejected. I guess it must be true.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed May 27, 2015 10:55 am

heimer wrote:This thread is about 10-10-10. I'm still struggling with your problem with this plan.


There are too many schools that belong in the top class to limit it to just 10. You have said in the past that the number of teams in a division shouldn't be based on the ease of making a schedule, which I believe the 10 is. You go 14-14-24 and I'm fine. Everyone knows Sheyenne and Legacy are going to be growing fast when they are all up and running. Dickinson will continue to grow. North is right there now and belong with the rest of the Fargo publics. GF Central is right at 500, what happens if they drop to 495 in two years? What if all these schools are over 500 in two years and only 10 students separate them all? They still get split into different divisions?
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Wed May 27, 2015 4:54 pm

Too many schools to limit a class?

You need to wake up a bit. Jamestown and Fargo South are not the same situation anymore. A class is not made better by it's number of participants, as South Dakota's approach clearly illustrates.

More on that in a moment.

Lets look at your 14-14-24 scenario. Sure the top class looks good:

Minot, West Fargo, Century, Bismarck, Davies, Red River, South, Mandan, Williston, Central, North, Sheyenne, Dickinson, Legacy.

But, did you even look at the second class?

Jamestown, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Watford City, Belcourt, St. Marys, Grafton, Valley City, Shanley, Beulah, Central Cass, Stanley, Griggs-Barnes County, Dickinson Trinity.

Getting pretty tough to justify Central Cass and GBC with Jamestown and Devils Lake.

But, your plan was calculated. I can tell you sat down with the numbers, because Lisbon and E-MV catch a break and only two 9-manners have to move up. Glad to see which schools you're comfortable selling out to make bank.

Now, back to South Dakota.

7 classes.

Top class has eight schools (5 in Sioux Falls, 2 in Rapid City, and Aberdeen Central). Eight schools. They don't cram a Watertown, Spearfish, Brookings, Pierre or Sturgis in there just to feel better about themselves. They recognize it for what it is.

Then 10, then 16, then 24. Lets see what that would look like in ND, shall we:

4A: Minot, West Fargo, Century, Bismarck, Davies, Red River, South, Mandan

3A: Williston, Central, North, Sheyenne, Dickinson, Legacy, Jamestown, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Watford City

2A: Belcourt, St. Marys, Grafton, Valley City, Shanley, Beulah, Central Cass, Stanley, GBC, Trinity, Lisbon, MV-E, Kindred, Hillsboro, Wells County, Berthold

1A: Des Lacs-Burlington, Bottineau, Ellendale-Edgeley-Kulm, Park River-F-L, Standing Rock, Belfield-South Heart, Hazen, Garrison-Max, Washburn-Wilton, Carrington, Rugby, Velva-Sawyer, Larimore, Lakota-Edmore-DP, Minot Ryan, Oak Grove, (these are the opt-ups, Northern Cass, Milnor-North Sargent, Oakes, Langdon, Westhope-Newberg, Killdeer), Kenmare, and either Richardton-Taylor-Hebron or May-Port-C-G.

This only takes two 9-man teams as well, just like your plan. Still a hearty fifth class. But I'm a little uncomfortable with Belcourt, St. Marys, Grafton, Valley City and Shanley in the same class as Hillsboro, Wells County and Berthold.

10-10-10 is the best thing I've seen so far.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu May 28, 2015 8:17 am

heimer wrote:Too many schools to limit a class?

You need to wake up a bit. Jamestown and Fargo South are not the same situation anymore. A class is not made better by it's number of participants, as South Dakota's approach clearly illustrates.

More on that in a moment.

Lets look at your 14-14-24 scenario. Sure the top class looks good:

Minot, West Fargo, Century, Bismarck, Davies, Red River, South, Mandan, Williston, Central, North, Sheyenne, Dickinson, Legacy.

But, did you even look at the second class?

Jamestown, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Watford City, Belcourt, St. Marys, Grafton, Valley City, Shanley, Beulah, Central Cass, Stanley, Griggs-Barnes County, Dickinson Trinity.

Getting pretty tough to justify Central Cass and GBC with Jamestown and Devils Lake.

But, your plan was calculated. I can tell you sat down with the numbers, because Lisbon and E-MV catch a break and only two 9-manners have to move up. Glad to see which schools you're comfortable selling out to make bank.

Now, back to South Dakota.

7 classes.

Top class has eight schools (5 in Sioux Falls, 2 in Rapid City, and Aberdeen Central). Eight schools. They don't cram a Watertown, Spearfish, Brookings, Pierre or Sturgis in there just to feel better about themselves. They recognize it for what it is.

Then 10, then 16, then 24. Lets see what that would look like in ND, shall we:

4A: Minot, West Fargo, Century, Bismarck, Davies, Red River, South, Mandan

3A: Williston, Central, North, Sheyenne, Dickinson, Legacy, Jamestown, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Watford City

2A: Belcourt, St. Marys, Grafton, Valley City, Shanley, Beulah, Central Cass, Stanley, GBC, Trinity, Lisbon, MV-E, Kindred, Hillsboro, Wells County, Berthold

1A: Des Lacs-Burlington, Bottineau, Ellendale-Edgeley-Kulm, Park River-F-L, Standing Rock, Belfield-South Heart, Hazen, Garrison-Max, Washburn-Wilton, Carrington, Rugby, Velva-Sawyer, Larimore, Lakota-Edmore-DP, Minot Ryan, Oak Grove, (these are the opt-ups, Northern Cass, Milnor-North Sargent, Oakes, Langdon, Westhope-Newberg, Killdeer), Kenmare, and either Richardton-Taylor-Hebron or May-Port-C-G.

This only takes two 9-man teams as well, just like your plan. Still a hearty fifth class. But I'm a little uncomfortable with Belcourt, St. Marys, Grafton, Valley City and Shanley in the same class as Hillsboro, Wells County and Berthold.

10-10-10 is the best thing I've seen so far.


I don't know why you have to turn every response into an argument Heimer. My suggestion was not calculated, just started from what I think should be in the top class and went from there. I believe Lisbon is a AA team, I didn't try to come up with a plan to drop them to A. Yes, it puts Central Cass in with Jamestown and DL, but Central Cass has been competing with DL, Shanley, St. Mary's, VC, etc for years. Really no different, just adds one big fish (Jamestown) into that class and puts DL back where they belong. Your plan puts Harvey and Berthold competing against St. Mary's, VC, Shanley.....is it really any different? And I don't care about what teams have to move from the top of 9man to the bottom of 11man, there is always going to be fluency at that point and the teams that fall around there are used to being moved back and forth.

And as far as SD goes, it is basically the same as I'm proposing. Sioux Falls, Rapid City, and Aberdeen are basically Fargo, Bismarck, and Williston. Watertown, Spearfish, Brookings, Pierre, and Sturgis are all the same as Jamestown, DL, Whap, VC. ND just has more larger schools that belong together. No different than what SD has for a plan now.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:23 am

Sioux Falls, Rapid City, and Aberdeen are to SD what Fargo, Bismarck, and Grand Forks are to ND, not Williston.

Seriously?

Why don't you just admit that you can't handle small classes. Someone has drilled into your head that a class is illegitimate if it doesn't contain an "x" number of schools.

10 is a perfectly sound number for the top classes. You have not yet made a sound argument against 10. All you've done is nit-pick the idea that one school in a particular city won't be in the same class as another.

So what? Fair is fair, and the layout of this plan should be challenged based on equity, not geography.

One class where the largest is Minot and the smallest is Central.

One class where the largest is North and the other is St. Marys

One class where the largest is Grafton and the smallest is E-MV.

One class where the largest is Kindred and the smallest is Oak Grove.

That's equity.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby Hinsa » Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:37 pm

Hi Heimer,

Whether it's been drilled into my head or I just have my own opinion on it, I like bigger classes. I also don't accept your claim that equity between the schools in a class is such an important driver of class setup.

To me, bigger classes with incomplete equity give birth to Cinderella teams. And what is more fun than getting behind a Cinderella or an underdog and hoping they can take it all the way?

Where do Cinderellas come from in a 10-team class? It's the same teams in the playoff every year.

What say you, oh wise-an'-heimer?
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:39 pm

Cinderella's slipper is not a football cleat.

It's a basketball shoe, even though that's debatable.

The nature of a Cinderella is once every 10 years. Maybe 15, maybe 20.

You'd trade one year for the other 9, or 14 or 19 in the middle.

I wonder how good that slipper looks to a team getting pi$$-pounded by 40 or more every Friday night.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby Hinsa » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:27 pm

I'll grant you that football is much tougher for Cinderella to pull off.

Yes, I would trade the one year for the 10 or 15 or 20 in the middle. That one great story lives on for years. One thing is assured, with complete parity, there are NO Cinderellas, NO David's slaying Goliath, NO stories that live on for years and years. I do understand that there will still be upsets, but nothing on the scale of David being hoisted on top of the shoulders of the Israelites and being carried around the battlefield. Now THAT'S a story.

As for the Poundees, even they have games during the season in which they are at least competitive. Will the poundees win a championship? Probably not. But in that one magical year when all the large parents in town have large baby boys, 18 years later Cinderella keeps the slippers and horse drawn coach, and David stands over the slain Goliath and there is much rejoicing.

Now THAT'S a story for the ages!
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:56 pm

As you trade the 9 years for the 1 of Cinderella, try to remember that there is a state's worth of kids at the center of this "story".

But hey, you're lot living it, so who cares about the kids, right?

Ridiculous.

Parity really not cool, doesn't it? I mean, it's been terrible for the NFL. No real Cinderella's hanging around in the NCAA this year, but that tournament was crap too, right?

Parity means players make plays, coaches coach plays. Anything else is just being bigger.

Yeah, had the Jews and the Philistines been evenly matched, there probably would have been no David vs. Goliath. But I'm guessing all the Jews that died before the rock was slung would have liked a little parity.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby Hinsa » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:58 pm

Now now, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that parity stinks, I said it ensures no Cinderella. Ever.

Pro football is king, without a doubt. But if it's because of parity, why does anyone watch football in Detroit, Tennessee, Jacksonville, the Carolinas, Houston, Buffalo, and even my beloved Vikings, among others. They haven't won a darn thing so parity doesn't seem to be working for them. I think it is much more attributable to the one game a week scheduling and the buildup to that game every week. Besides, comparing the NFL to high school sports is like a Corvette vs. a Hot Wheels trike.

The NCAA tournament is the best tournament in all of American sport. One and done. Win or go home. Drama every game. Frequent Cinderellas. And even when there is no Cinderella, the quality of play is still phenomenal and upsets can happen at any time. I did not say the tournament was crap when there are no true Cinderellas. Look at this year and how fun it was to see Kentucky get taken down.

As for the kids involved, I'd like to see a poll of high school athletes that asks them if they would rather compete in a big pond with long odds but big rewards, or in a small pond with a better chance of winning but knowing that any championships are watered down. I'd really like to know. We can debate that 'til we're blue in the face but until a poll could be conducted of the kids we just do not know.

That's the kind of info the NDHSAA should be collecting to help them make decisions. But heaven forbid that any credence be given to the opinions of the kids who play the games.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:48 pm

How about a different poll question: Should classes make their best effort to include schools that are the same size, or let Hillsboro play Fargo Shanley and Wahpeton.

You ask one question, I'll ask another. The poll is worthless.

The real question is, "Is equity fair?'. The answer is "yes". If you want to play in a bigger pond, opt up. We only disallow that for AAA right now, no other class.

Schools that want parity can have a 10-10-10 and find equity. Those that want big rewards can opt up and work toward them.

Besides, the reward is the same, because of equity. We don't play the 9-man final in Beulah and the AAA final at the Fargodome. We all go to the Fargodome, and everyone is on TV. Where's your bigger reward? There isn't one.

Equity is fair. Choice is fair. Equity plus choice equals the best system.

Anything less is just that, less.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby Hinsa » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:18 pm

The poll may indeed be worthless. I alluded to that in my last post. I'd just like to know what the kids think of the big/little pond thing.

As for the bigger reward, that comes from the increased press coverage when there are less divisions, and the pride of beating a pot full of teams to win a title instead of just 9 others.

Imagine this conversation: "You play football in high school?" "Yup and we won a state championship." "Wow, cool! How many teams in your division?" "Um...er...well...10."

Compare that to this conversation. "You play football in H.S.?" "Yup, we won state." "Cool. How many teams in your division?" "(with distinct pride) 50!"

Take out the 50 and insert 30. Even 20. The conversations have a different sound, don't they.

The opt up option is always a good idea to keep. It allows schools like Velva and Cavalier among others who have traditionally had strong football programs to maintain their rivalries and bragging rights in the upper divisions as long as they possibly can. Equity plus choice IS a good thing.

But I can't stomach the size of the upper divisions. 10-team divisions is basically one conference playing their season and then having their own post-season tournament and calling it a state championship. Plus it feels to me like it is bordering on giving everyone a trophy. Seriously, if 1st and 2nd in state get trophies in a 10-team division, and they decide to give trophies to the other two semifinalists, 40% of the teams in the division get state trophies.

Too many in my book.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:41 pm

Again, you're willing to trade a season for trophies.

The conversation would go something like this:

"You played high school football?" "Yep, we won state my senior year." "What class?" "4A, top class in the state."

There's plenty of pride in that statement.

You simply can't change. You simply won't change. The days of the conference are over. The RRV Conference doesn't matter anymore.

The state is changing. Either change with it or stick to the dogma of Epping vs. Hillsboro.

I'll take change.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby lovwatchingsports » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:26 pm

I think someone should get into coaching so they can get on a team on a class where they are a smaller one. and get stuff pounded and a great year is 4 wins. or maybe needs to have a kid on one of those teams then they might get it.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:42 am

Quite right. It's easy when eight teams opt up so your 1A school can be the biggest 9-man kid on the block.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby Hinsa » Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:49 pm

Heimer:

It is my prerogative to change or not. No one can force me to change my opinions.

The prideful conversation you choose to select is for the highest class. I would agree that winning the top class is the absolute best a team can do in the state and they should be full of pride. What about class 3A and 2A? Not so glamorous anymore. "We won class 2A. Beat 9 other teams in our division for a state title."

Big friggin' whoop-de-do.

I agree about conferences. They don't mean much anymore. Oh my goodness, I CHANGED on the importance of conferences. :shock:

Lovwatchingsports:

I've been coaching at one level or another in one sport or another for 35 years. We've had the stuffings pounded out of us by bigger teams, smaller teams, and teams our size. Don't tell me I don't get it.

Heimer:

Odd, but I don't remember a year when 8 teams opted up so our school ended up the biggest 9-man kid. Exaggeration, maybe?
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby heimer » Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:09 pm

Tell me what team you're with, and I'll tell you if six teams, not eight, opted up to allow you to fall to 9-man.
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Re: Another Run at 10-10-10

Postby Indy5 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:32 pm

I don't care how many teams are in a class. I want to see the class done right. I'm sure SD would rather have more than 8 teams in the top class, but it just wouldn't work, so they take it as it is.

Heimer, you had the right idea in looking at SD and applying to ND, but there are some things you didn't consider. The state of SD is dominated by Sioux Falls and Rapid City population wise. So, they put all the public schools (and the big private of SF) into a class. Now, there's a drop off to the 3rd largest town, but Aberdeen is a pretty sports friendly town, and I'm sure Central feels they're just fine against those big schools. And this is not to say they do it all right because their plan isn't good all around, but they got the top class right. The 3 classes of 9 man is ridiculous, but that's another story.

Now, if you look at ND, our population is spread differently. There are 4 population centers instead of two. Using the same logic as in the SD plan would mean all public schools in MInot, Bismarck, Grand Forks, and Fargo have to be together (as well as Mandan and West Fargo since they're essentially Bismarck and Fargo). It just makes no sense for them not to be. The debate can come with what to do with Williston, Dickinson, and Jamestown. If this was pre-oil, I'd probably be in favor of putting them in the next class. Now, I think Dickinson and Williston need to be in the top class. That puts Jamestown in a weird spot. I think they'd be fine staying in the top class since they have been. I could live with them dropping down too.

When coming up with a plan, you have to start with the top class, in my opinion. I think messing that up has the biggest ramifications. When you're at the A and 9 man levels, it kind of all works out. AA will always be the toughest class to group. I don't think you can divide them to where there isn't somewhat of a gap between top and bottom in that class. It's just the way the state is.
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