The New Plan

North Dakota High School Football
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Re: The New Plan

Postby cmplx6 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:53 am

Yes Helmet reconditioning. There is only one state that has it required by law, and that is California which requires every helmet, every year. Most states will follow this similar practice. New Helmets that receive a minimum score of 5 stars from the Virginia Tech Test cost on average $250 and as much as $400. Helmets should not be used longer than 10 years. So $50 per player is not a bad investment to make sure they have something certified protecting their head.

Minimum recommendations are 50% of the helmets used every year.
http://nocsae.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... -11-09.pdf

That is the minimum. The minimum is not what we should strive for concerning the safety of the players.

Proper technique is another vital part that is lacking. That can be attributed to the lack of qualified coaches in the state. Most 9-man teams are lucky to have 3-4 coaches.

And I would be very interested as to what the numbers are for programs across the state that have strength and conditioning programs and what their participation numbers are as a percentage of their programs. From what I have seen, outside of the AAA and some AA programs, there are very few weight training programs that are organized by the coaches.

With that new Will Smith movie out the sport of football is on the path to be demonized by the media. I think that if we acknowledge that it is a dangerous sport, but also do everything we can to help prevent injuries, the sport of football will survive.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby Wild Wolves » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:29 am

Some manufacturers require reconditioning at
least every two years as part of their warranty requirements,
so the two year program would accommodate
that issue as well.

Side note: Of 360 kids in our program we had 8 reported concussions this season. We follow a strict guideline for return to play. The only way that the athlete doesn't have to follow that is if the parents take the athlete to a doctor and get clearance. Of the 8, 4 returned to play in the minimum time required and 3 went to a doctor and were cleared sooner than that time (the other one occurred in our last contest and the athlete did not show up for meetings but mom and athlete reported they were symptom free..not a best case scenerio in our minds). Only one athlete was wearing a helmet older than 4 years old and it had been reconditioned the previous off-season.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby B-oldtimer » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:00 pm

cmplx6 I don't doubt correct weight or muscle training program would be beneficial to kids but if you read your articles they required right coaching and access to proper equipment to develop kids physically. Now vast majority of small class b schools if they have weight training facilities its not resistant type training its more for like talk Olympic type training of heavy lifting equipment. The kids if coached will be taught how use this equipment and maybe some follow up through out the year. This is not what they were talking about in your articles and to be fair to small schools they have hard enough time coming up with good coaches to handle activities they are doing now and a lot of these schools are hiring or getting community or parent help to fill in for coaching. But I have seen to many kids that the weight training has been detriment to them and has hurt there performance in other sports other than football. Weight training from football side is to get these kids bigger and stronger and not worried about if they maintained there flexibility or athleticism for other sports.
The other thing that's unique to class b in North Dakota is that teams for football are not made up of junior and senior players on the varsity where they are physically mature and stronger than younger kids. We have kids here where on varsity there may be several freshman or sophomore playing that would be small even for larger class A junior high schools. Now we mix in kids that have weight trained to be physically big and strong meeting these smaller and immature kids its recipe for injuries to occur. Now I am what is considered ancient but when schools that had football in 60 and 70's before we got into weight training I remember if you had 200 hundred pound kid at that time they were big and you if you had couple you were huge. The average kids playing then I would have been about 160 lbs and now look we have kids playing that are 250 to 300+ with teams having several kids in that group. But we still have these small kids like I talked about that weigh 140 to 160 so what happens when these kids meet in violent hits on field you figured it out. Thank god that equipment has gotten better to protect these kids in the past and coaching is better too correctly tackle and protect yourself on the field. I know I am not going to change a lot of people minds about this but this is my historical perspective of what I have seen over the years. But I think this is going to be one of the reasons that we see further decline in participation in football because parents are seeing it and don't want there children put at risk. You can argue otherwise but numbers are showing it here and all over the country.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby cmplx6 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:25 pm

There just isn't any scientific data that would support the theory that weight training is detrimental for the ability of athletes in high school. And in every sport athletes need to increase their muscle mass conditioning. This is true for basketball, baseball, wrestling, baseball, volleyball. Any coach that has any type of education in kinesiology will understand this.

I do agree with you that there is a serious lack of knowledge at the high school level in general in strength training. This coupled with the decline in Physical Education curriculum across the nation due to budget cuts and you have a large problem. What could the solution be? Increased training in off-season condition for coaches maybe?
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Re: The New Plan

Postby Hinsa » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:28 pm

How about a fulltime speed and strength conditioning position mandated at every school? Co-ops would be considered one school. Coaches have plenty, plenty on their plate just coaching the sport, and putting together a GOOD weight training program and being there to monitor it takes almost as much time commitment as the actual sport coaching.

I know the position would be another expense to already strapped school budgets, but wouldn't this be a case of putting your money where your mouth is? We want athletes as safe as possible, but unless a coach has a passion for weight training the program falls by the wayside.

Thoughts?
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Re: The New Plan

Postby classB4ever » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:52 pm

Hinsa wrote:How about a fulltime speed and strength conditioning position mandated at every school? Co-ops would be considered one school. Coaches have plenty, plenty on their plate just coaching the sport, and putting together a GOOD weight training program and being there to monitor it takes almost as much time commitment as the actual sport coaching.

I know the position would be another expense to already strapped school budgets, but wouldn't this be a case of putting your money where your mouth is? We want athletes as safe as possible, but unless a coach has a passion for weight training the program falls by the wayside.

Thoughts?


I like it. Maybe make it a dual position and have them as the acting security guard as well. Seems to be the direction things are going.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby cmplx6 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:07 pm

To be honest I think the major reason most coaches are not as committed to an off-season training program is not because of a lack of commitment, but a lack of knowledge. Many older coaches did not grow up with the type of strength and speed training that today's athletes have available to them, and they are not familiar with the concepts and techniques. Many coaches that are teachers,if they are not PE teachers, they typically do not have expertise knowledge in that area to where they feel comfortable enough to instruct the students.

Schools could save money and have Professional Development for their coaches in this area. Pay designated strength training professionals to come in and give the coaches basic knowledge beyond their own scope. I doubt any school board in North Dakota would approve a strength coach. This state is very cheap and frugal, which I am not knocking I applaud North Dakota having a state surplus and not a deficit.

All of the school districts have P.D. days were the students are either off the whole day or part of it. This is for the teachers to receive further training. The schools could do something very similar, even holding it on a weekend, for the coaches.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby Mailman_25 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:04 pm

The NDHSAA Board approved the parameters of the 2017-2018 football plan Monday. 14 teams in AAA, 10 in AA, 32 in A, and the rest in 9-man. Division assignments coming in March. Although not official, Devils Lake returns to AA. And perhaps the biggest change is the potential drop of Jamestown to AA.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:45 am

I'm curious to see how the 10 team AA will be set up. Everyone plays everyone once then go through playoffs? I really hoped they'd go with 14 in AA.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby Mailman_25 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:00 am

10 teams does allow each team to fill out a 9 game schedule. I also know for certain several AA schools are less than thrilled with the potential travel involved with this new AA division. Even if they split it 5 East/West, the teams will have trouble filling a 9 game schedule. I am sure the football committee has some idea of how the new AA division will go about filling their schedules. In my own personal opinion, I have become a bigger fan lately of teams only playing 8 regular season games anyway.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby bulldog_power » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:50 pm

Just seems like to few teams in "A". How many teams are going to playoffs... 8. Just doesn't seem like there will be real parity within that division. I think both "AAA" and "AA" should both have 14 or 16 teams. I know enrollments a very different from the top teams to the bottom, but unfortunately there's not
Much anyone can do about that if that is what we are going to use to determine divisions. Just seems like we should want our "top" divisions to have more parity and be more competitive come playoff time.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby cmplx6 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:19 pm

With 102 schools and 4 divisions and there being such large separation in student population between school #1 and school #103 there should be a little more input from the individual schools as to the placement. Right now there are 46 9-man schools, 24 A, 16 AA, and 16 AAA. So dropping 8 teams from the top two divisions down and keeping this massive 46 team 9-man division seems a bit vanila. How many teams will be making the playoffs for each division?
I for one would be in favor of have two 9-man divisions, each with 24 teams. 9a and 9b. The top two teams from 9b move up into 9a and the bottom 2 teams in 9a move to 9b each year.
The A and AA divisions could do the same thing. Keep AAA the same because of the enrolment numbers are so much larger than the other divisions.

It would be a big service for the New Towns, Midways, and Sargent central to help them reestablish their programs and get their numbers up. Some of these programs are on the verge of collapsing and it does them no good to get beat by 50 points by some of the better 9-man teams. Imagine this year you might have had Dunseith against Trenton/Trinity in the 9b state championship.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby caserace0710 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:23 am

ndlionsfan wrote:I'm curious to see how the 10 team AA will be set up. Everyone plays everyone once then go through playoffs? I really hoped they'd go with 14 in AA.


I agree. I thought they should've done 14 AAA, 14 AA, 28 A and the rest 9-man. I just don't see someone such as Grafton or Beulah being Class A (they could always opt-up to AA). Here is how I would've aligned the 11-man divisions if they would've gone 14-14-28 with possible opt-ups:

* - Would be Class A in 2017-18 plan
^ - Opt-up from 9-man to A in 2017-18 plan

AAA East
Fargo Davies
Fargo North
Fargo South
Grand Forks Central
Grand Forks Red River
West Fargo
West Fargo Sheyenne

AAA West
Bismarck
Bismarck Century
Bismarck Legacy
Dickinson
Mandan
Minot
Williston

AA East
Central Cass*
Central Dakota*
Devils Lake
Fargo Shanley
Grafton*
Valley City
Wahpeton

AA West
Beulah*
Bismarck St. Mary's
Dickinson Trinity
Jamestown
Stanley/Powers Lake
Turtle Mountain
Watford City

A - Region 1
Ellendale/Edgeley/Kulm
Enderlin/Maple Valley
Kindred
Lisbon
Milnor/North Sargent^
Oak Grove
Oakes

A - Region 2
Carrington^
Harvey/Wells County
Hillsboro/CV
Langdon/Munich
Larimore^
Northern Cass
Park River/Fordville-Lankin

A - Region 3
Berthold/Our Redeemers
Bishop Ryan^
Bottineau
Des Lacs-Burlington
Rugby
Velva/Sawyer
Westhope/Newburg/Glenburn

A - Region 4
Garrison/Max
Hazen
Heart River
Killdeer^
New Town
Southern McLean
Standing Rock
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North Dakota High School Football historical information since 1975
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Re: The New Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:35 pm

That looks good and makes a lot of sense. Really doesn't look like anyone is out of place in a class.

Remember that teams can still co-op or drop schools from their co-op until this fall, so some placements might change. Can anyone see, for instance, Stanley dropping Powers Lake to remain in A? I can possibly see this becoming an issue if a small school in the co-op doesn't contribute enough numbers.

Will be interesting to see what teams opt-up as well. Just cannot see teams like Killdeer and Carrington in 9man.

I also like the idea of 2 classes of 9man to be more consistent with the divisions, but would be more in favor of extending AA with the top half of enrollments in A, then use the bottom half enrollments of A to move down to 9man.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby cmplx6 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:22 pm

I believe Stanley is looking to drop Powers Lake, so now Powers Lake is looking to try and get Burke Central to drop from Kenmare Bowbells and Co-Op with them. So Burke Central is actually voting on the option to stay on with Kenmare/Bowbells, or to Co-op with Powers Lake. The other option would be for Powers Lake to join the Kenmare/Bowbells/Burke Central Co-Op for football.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:23 pm

I could see Trinity dropping NE, too. Depending on how they set up that AA class, I can see schools doing whatever they can to stay out of it to avoid the cost of travel.

That would be an interesting decision for K/B/BC co-op. Add Powers Lake and cement yourself as an A program or split and have 2 9man teams.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby NDPREP » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:05 am

I don't understand people complaining about the travel in AA? The West has had Griggs County (Cooperstown), Watford, Stanley, and Turtle Mountain for a while. Having Valley and Jamestown doesn't do much for travel, it already was a grind.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:26 am

NDPREP wrote:I don't understand people complaining about the travel in AA? The West has had Griggs County (Cooperstown), Watford, Stanley, and Turtle Mountain for a while. Having Valley and Jamestown doesn't do much for travel, it already was a grind.


It depends on how they set up the division. With 10 teams, if they play a full conference schedule against everyone it will add to the travel for some teams that aren't used to it. Trinity would have to travel to Wahp, DL, Fargo, VC, Jamestown, Belcourt, and possibly Central Cass (obviously not all in the same year) but that's a lot more travel than when they played just west region teams. When you add the east teams going out to Trinity, WC, and Belcourt that even adds a lot of travel for them when they are used to pretty short distances playing in the east.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby cmplx6 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:33 pm

You could split the teams up into more regionally centered leagues. The leagues can have intraleague play for the 1st 4 or 5 games to determine seeding. Then they could have a double elimination tournament with each week having a game leading to a league championship. This could also serve as a playoff seeding. You could even have the last few games played the 1st week of the playoffs as a "5th and 7th place bowl" Keep the playoffs to 8 teams and end the season after 12 weeks.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby Mailman_25 » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:08 pm

I would assume that travel is the main issue with the teams that are solidly in the AA division. The teams on the lower fringe of the division I would suspect are concerned with the competitive nature. There will be lots of shuffling and politics between March and October. It wouldn't shock me in the least if the AA division ended up with 8 teams, especially if Stanley/Trinity drop to A and Central Cass/Grafton are moved to AA.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby B-oldtimer » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:58 pm

This class a division looks good from past history but I have seen already that number of these schools are having participation problems already in there programs. The numbers out for football have been dropping for number of reasons. A big one is parents are not willing to let their kids play football because of injuries and I don't know if it ix just passing phase or its going to become more prevalent. I have seen it with some of local schools here especially if a team experiences number of injuries and especially concussions parents have become more concerned about health of their children long term. Also add in if you start to have number of years of loosing and it get real difficult to get program back to where I am seeing where number of schools have had to coop with another school to just offer the sport. I have read this is just not here but its happening all over US so I think schools will need to be communicating more to activities association about participation numbers make of their teams as to size of players and age of the kids playing the sport much more than they ever have. Because I know of couple of these teams you have on the list their numbers are quite low and your going to have a lot immature kids going against a lot of mature and physical kids poor situation to have. Schools administrators and coaches don't like to admit and report these difficulties to activities association like its failure on their part instead of just telling the truth and let facts be known.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby Mandan » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:23 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:I could see Trinity dropping NE, too. Depending on how they set up that AA class, I can see schools doing whatever they can to stay out of it to avoid the cost of travel.



I don't know that Trinity would do that to New England, and I would argue that the travel wouldn't be that bad for them.

Originally, Mott-Regent wouldn't co-op with New England because it would have pushed them up to 11 man. Mott-Regent has an adjusted number of 28.42, and New England is 36.02. If New England now did a co-op with Mott/Regent, That would be 64.44, which is right on the upper limit of 9 man. If New England tried to go with Belfield/South Heart, their combined adjusted number would be 112.57, which would be the third highest class A team. Any growth in those schools could push them to AA in the next two year plan.

So New England might be in a tough spot to find a partner that is in a reasonable distance that would welcome them.

Trinity's travelling (assuming it stays the 10 teams currently in the AA category) and guessing on how they would pair up the schools, here it how it could be in a season:

1 trip to Wahpeton or Shanley
1 trip to Jamestown or Valley City
1 trip to Devil's Lake or Belcourt
1 trip to Watford City or Stanley
alternating home and road with St Mary's.

With Trinity having easy interstate access to the towns at top of that list, the Belcourt/Devils Lake trip is the only real bad one. And they've already had both of those schools in their region before. The schools farther from the interstate are the ones that will be more adversely affected.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby The Schwab » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:26 pm

I heard on Saturday that Trinity is dropping New England, could be rumor.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:50 pm

The Schwab wrote:I heard on Saturday that Trinity is dropping New England, could be rumor.


If it does happen, I wonder if New England will opt to start their own 9man team.
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Re: The New Plan

Postby Mailman_25 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:26 pm

A potential New England co-op with Mott-Regent should still safely land then in 9-man. I still envision teams like Ryan, Carrington, Larimore, and Killdeer opting up to 11-man. Potentially Milnor-North Sargent as well. Those 5 opting up would put even higher enrollment teams above them on the list.
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