2013-14 Football Plan?

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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Flip » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:15 pm

heimer wrote:Make it easy for them! That's a laugh! Take your beloved "B" team and go play in the EDC for a while, then tell me how easy it is.

Class "B": Don't spoil our party or we will get mad! I guess "B" stands for babies, as in, babies that whine about a good decision till you can vote it out of existence.


you're right it's the class b backers that sound like the babies
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:09 pm

January, 2010 saw nothing but whining from b schools.
God is bigger than football.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby EHS1998 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:26 pm

Justifiable outrage over an underhanded move aimed only at benefiting one school is not whining.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby The Schwab » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:03 am

EHS1998 wrote:Justifiable outrage over an underhanded move aimed only at benefiting one school is not whining.


EHS for the win.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby In_the_Know » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:06 pm

For AA football they should send the last place EDC team to the west the following year. This would put more pressure on EDC teams to get better or else you face consequences of long road trips. Than it could change every year.

I'm kidding acoarse.

If you think about it though it would actually help out GBC to play in the west. In 2011 GBC would have made the play offs if they would have played in the west. The west had a down year and other than Beulah it looks like they are down again in 2012.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:10 pm

2013-14 NDHSAA Football Plan
as of October 3rd, 2012
**Nearly Final

CLASS AAA
East
West Fargo
Fargo Davies
GF Red River
Fargo South
Fargo North
GF Central
Devils Lake

West
Minot
Bismarck
Century
Mandan
Williston
Jamestown
Dickinson

CLASS AA
East
Wahpeton
Valley City
Fargo Shanley
Grafton
Central Cass
Kindred
Maple Valley-Enderlin
Lisbon

West
Turtle Mountain
St. Mary's
Griggs/Barnes County
Beulah
Watford City
Dickinson Trinity
Stanley-Powers Lake
Bishop Ryan

CLASS A
Region 1
Hillsboro-Central Valley
Ellendale-Edgeley/Kulm
Carrington
Northern Cass
Oakes
Kidder County
Linton-HMB
Milnor-North Sargent

Region 2
Larimore
May-Port-CG
Langdon
Midway-Minto
Lakota-Adams-Edmore/Dakota Prairie
Park River-FL
North Border
North Prairie

Region 3
Berthold-Our Redeemer's
Des Lacs-Burlington
Rugby
Williams County
Bottineau
Harvey-Wells County
Surrey
Velva

Region 4
Hazen
Southern McLean
Garrison-Max
Heart River
Standing Rock
New Salem-Glen Ullin
Central McLean
Killdeer

9-MAN
Region 1
Oak Grove
LaMoure-LM
Richland
Napoleon-Gackle-Streeter
Hankinson
South Border
Wyndmere-Lidgerwood
Sargent Central
Strasburg/Zeeland

Region 2
Thompson
Benson County
Drayton/Valley-Edinburg
Cavalier
Finley-Sharon-Hope-Page
Hatton-Northwood
New Rockford-Sheyenne
Four Winds
North Star

Region 3
New Town
Kenmare-Bowbells
Westhope-Newburg-Glenburn
TGU
Dunseith
Mohall-Lansford-Sherwood
Tri-County
Parshall-White Shield
Divide County
St. John

Region 4
Grant County-Flasher
Bowman County
Richardton-Taylor-Hebron
Hettinger-Scranton
Beach
Shiloh Christian
Trenton-Trinity Christian
Mott-Regent
Center-Stanton
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:05 pm

I bet DC is happy at who dropped down and what region they moved to. That's gotta cut down a ton of miles for them. I like that BC got moved back to the NE where I played in my HS days as well as Northstar to keep that rivalry intact. Oak Grove makes more sense down in Region 1 with some natural rivalries there, too. 9man regions seem pretty balanced.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Indy5 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:42 pm

In_the_Know wrote:If you think about it though it would actually help out GBC to play in the west. In 2011 GBC would have made the play offs if they would have played in the west. The west had a down year and other than Beulah it looks like they are down again in 2012.

I wouldn't say Bishop Ryan is down. Their only loss was to Kindred when Bachmeier was healthy (I've heard he's been out since they played?) and Ryan was incredibly injury stricken.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby In_the_Know » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:37 am

Indy5 wrote:
In_the_Know wrote:If you think about it though it would actually help out GBC to play in the west. In 2011 GBC would have made the play offs if they would have played in the west. The west had a down year and other than Beulah it looks like they are down again in 2012.

I wouldn't say Bishop Ryan is down. Their only loss was to Kindred when Bachmeier was healthy (I've heard he's been out since they played?) and Ryan was incredibly injury stricken.


Kindred was beat by Lisbon a week later after Ryan by a score of 48-26. Bachmeir played the whole Lisbon game. He got injured in the Shanley game in week 4.

Bishop Ryan was already injury ridden in the second game of the year? That seems to be the excuse every year for them. Are you saying they were beaten up so badly by a Velva team going through a down year? A Velva team that could be a 9 man because of their enrollment numbers?

The Beulah game will be their first test of the season. Everyone else Bishop Ryan has played so far is having a down year.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Indy5 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:22 am

In_the_Know wrote:
Indy5 wrote:
In_the_Know wrote:If you think about it though it would actually help out GBC to play in the west. In 2011 GBC would have made the play offs if they would have played in the west. The west had a down year and other than Beulah it looks like they are down again in 2012.

I wouldn't say Bishop Ryan is down. Their only loss was to Kindred when Bachmeier was healthy (I've heard he's been out since they played?) and Ryan was incredibly injury stricken.


Kindred was beat by Lisbon a week later after Ryan by a score of 48-26. Bachmeir played the whole Lisbon game. He got injured in the Shanley game in week 4.

Bishop Ryan was already injury ridden in the second game of the year? That seems to be the excuse every year for them. Are you saying they were beaten up so badly by a Velva team going through a down year? A Velva team that could be a 9 man because of their enrollment numbers?

Their injuries were not from week 1. They came from random dumb things. Best lineman Mason Kramer had an appendectomy at the start of the season. Starting quarterback Austin Eggl had knee surgery in the summer and only played the second half, also was his first game back. 2nd biggest lineman Dakota Johnson had foot surgery that week. Senior lineman Matt Neiss did suffer a leg injury against Velva and was nowhere near 100%. So 3 of those 4 injuries had nothing to do with week 1 and were just unfortunate.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:45 pm

Heimer, I'm disappointed in you. You've put out several plans that are better than this.

- 1) Makes no sense to draw up a 12 team league with an unbalanced schedule. You're going to create a league where team X squeaks into the playoffs over team Y by a game because, by pure luck of the draw, team X didn't have to play Bismarck High in the year 2013 but team Y did?

- 2) Makes no sense to limit AAA to 12 teams when we have new schools in West Fargo and Bismarck on the horizon that will surely belong in AAA.

- 3) Makes no sense to bump Dickinson to AA football. Are you familiar with the Bakken and the oil boom? Name another AA town that has 27 hotels either operating or under construction. Dickinson is preparing to be a community of 40,000 and the "master plan" is to put them in AA football in the same division as Griggs/Barnes County?



heimer wrote:The way football should be:

AAA--12 teams, 10 games, rotating one team not played every year in regular season.

No regional classifications, due to regular season schedule. Top 8 make playoffs.

West Fargo
Minot
Bismarck
Bismarck Century
Fargo Davies
Grand Forks Red River
Fargo South
Mandan
Fargo North
Grand Forks Central
Williston
Jamestown

AA--12 teams, 10 games, rotating one team not played in regular season

No regional assignments, top 8 make playoffs

Dickinson
Devils Lake
Wahpeton
Belcourt
Valley City
Fargo Shanley
Bismarck St. Marys
Griggs-Barnes County
Grafton
Beulah
Watford City
Central Cass

A--24 teams, 6 per region, nine games, travel alliance with other east or west region for four non-league games, based on your geographic position in state.

4 each region make playoffs

Region 1:
Kindred
Enderlin-Maple Valley
Lisbon
Ellendale-Edgeley-Kulm
Northern Cass
May-Port-C-G

Region 2:
Hillsboro-Central Valley
Larimore
Langdon-Munich
Wells County
Midway-Minto
Nelson County (L-A-E/DP)

Region 3:
Stanley-Powers Lake
Des Lacs-Burlington
Rugby
Williams County (Tioga-Ray)
Bottineau
Minot Ryan

Region 4:
Dickinson Trinity-NE
Lewis and Clark-Our Redeemers
Hazen
Washburn-Wilton-Wing
Garrison-Max
Carrington

Nine-man=rest

51 teams, regions of eight or nine to balance, bring back play-in round of playoffs, 4 per region.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby legacy382 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:33 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Just read about the LAE/DP co-op in the Herald today. But I also read that Adams is voting on consolidating with Park River next year. If that vote passes, do enough Adams kids come off that enrollment number to drop back to 9man?


The vote did pass and I do not believe this will impact the enrollment situation
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby dyhardballa09 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:57 pm

How many kids will E/K Ellendale expect out for their team next year? Are they going to be around 35-40?
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby NDplayin » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:32 pm

I’ve brought this concept up every time I see a discussion of division classification on here: Why do we insist on creating our divisions based on what will be easiest for schedule makers rather than what is in the best interest of student-athletes? Rather than focusing on having nice round numbers with neatly split little regions (thus making scheduling easy), I’d prefer to see North Dakota set defined enrollment cutoffs from one division to the next. Now we’d be considering the athletes best interests by focusing on the question of what enrollment ranges make it reasonable for the lowest and highest enrollment schools within that range to be competitive with each other while still maintaining reasonably sized divisions. Allow any school who wants to opt-up that opportunity, but never allow opt-downs. Allow a firm enrollment cutoff to determine what schools are in what division first- THEN take the number of schools you have (odd or even) and create the regions that will work best.

An example of using this system in a way that would reflect the current division assignments would be:

Male enrollment over 250= AAA
Male enrollment 100-249= AA
Male enrollment 60-99= A
Male enrollment under 60= 9 mine.

However, in my mind, this is more of a debate about philosophy than actual numbers. I would much prefer to debate which numbers would be most fair for the athletes of North Dakota than I would debate which number of teams in a division makes it easier for athletic directors to schedule games.

Unfortunately, utopias don’t exist and none of these plans can ever create a “perfectly fair” situation for every school and every athlete. The focus is what is reasonably fair for reasonable sized divisions. Due to the current climate of North Dakota, Devils Lake is in a very unfortunate situation. We simply don’t have the right number of schools to offer both a division of enrollments 500+ AND a division of 200-499. Until that changes, Devils Lake is in a danged if you do danged if you don’t situation. It is what it is- at least we wouldn’t be scratching our heads every two years trying to figure out how to balance numbers so that ADs can schedule games without having to put any real effort into it what-so-ever while watching schools with a stable enrollment bounce up and down between divisions as other schools surrounding them add or lose students.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Indy5 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:07 pm

NDplayin wrote:Male enrollment over 250= AAA
Male enrollment 100-249= AA
Male enrollment 60-99= A
Male enrollment under 60= 9 mine.

I don't have a problem with this idea, but I don't have a problem with the current arrangement either. I'm sure your numbers were just a rough estimate, but I feel those numbers would create more teams in the upper divisions. And I think schools like Grafton with just over 250 kids would certainly not want to be playing the Bismarck Highs and Fargo Souths of the world.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Flip » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:13 pm

Male enrollment, not total enrollment.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Indy5 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:07 pm

Flip wrote:Male enrollment, not total enrollment.

O right. Not sure why I didn't think of that. In that case, those numbers seem pretty good to me.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby NDplayin » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:46 pm

Again, those numbers are examples of numbers that would reflect our current system. I'd really enjoy a conversation about what the actual numbers would/should be... but as a first priority, I'm more concerned with the philosophy of enrollment cutoffs vs. the philosophy of forcing a round number of teams.

As one of many reasons, I dislike the yo-yo-ing of particular teams from one class to the other, and I don't think it's good for programs. I think Rugby is a team that has likely had a pretty stable enrollment but gets bounced back and forth between AA and A almost every two year plan. If their enrollment is stable, either they are a AA team or an A team and shouldn't be forced to switch back and forth every two years just because so-and-so dissolves a co-op and then so-and-so picks up some oil boom students.

I like that enrollment cutoffs tempers this situation. It's true you could have a team that flutters just barely above and then just barely below the cut-off line. However, if I were writing the plan it would continue to check male enrollment every two years, but require that a schools enrollment either stay above or below the line for two consecutive rotations (4) years before being moved up or down. There would be a petitionable exception in the case of a rapid change in enrollment that would carry a team either drastically above or drastically below the line within just a couple years.

Now you're ensuring teams that should be playing one another regardless of how easy it is for Athletic Directors, and you're preventing the constant yo-yo-ing of divisions by particular teams.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Hinsa » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:03 pm

When is it time to go back to 3 divisions instead of 4? I wish I had the numbers to back this up, but we have significantly less teams than when we broke out into 4 divisions. I like the idea of solid enrollment cutoffs, just make 2 cutoff points instead of 3.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby NDplayin » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:26 pm

I'm opening to considering this Hinsa, although I admit my gut instinct says we'd struggle to make it work. Your point about there being significantly fewer teams is valid. However, what I think you're over looking is that while the number of teams is fewer- the spread of enrollments is larger. West Fargo and Minot are setting new enrollment standards for "big" North Dakota schools, while the smaller schools are getting smaller. So again, while I'm open to considering it, I feel like even though we may have few enough teams to suit three classes... we wouldn't find enrollment ranges that would be reasonable for a competitive atmosphere.

What would you recommend those two enrollment cutoffs be?
Hinsa wrote:When is it time to go back to 3 divisions instead of 4? I wish I had the numbers to back this up, but we have significantly less teams than when we broke out into 4 divisions. I like the idea of solid enrollment cutoffs, just make 2 cutoff points instead of 3.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Hinsa » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:07 pm

NDplayin wrote:I'm opening to considering this Hinsa, although I admit my gut instinct says we'd struggle to make it work. Your point about there being significantly fewer teams is valid. However, what I think you're over looking is that while the number of teams is fewer- the spread of enrollments is larger. West Fargo and Minot are setting new enrollment standards for "big" North Dakota schools, while the smaller schools are getting smaller. So again, while I'm open to considering it, I feel like even though we may have few enough teams to suit three classes... we wouldn't find enrollment ranges that would be reasonable for a competitive atmosphere.

What would you recommend those two enrollment cutoffs be?
Hinsa wrote:When is it time to go back to 3 divisions instead of 4? I wish I had the numbers to back this up, but we have significantly less teams than when we broke out into 4 divisions. I like the idea of solid enrollment cutoffs, just make 2 cutoff points instead of 3.


Using the DPI numbers on the NDHSAA site, I would say this:

AA = 300 and above
A = 80-299
9-man = under 90

Allow opt-ups. Absolutely ZERO opt-downs.

This puts 13 in AA, soon to be 14 when West Fargo splits. Minot should split but who knows if they ever will. Devils Lake is the oddball for any cutoff between the "bigs" and the "mids."

Based on the 2013-14 plan numbers, it puts 39 in A. Why 80? It's about the lower limit of how many boys you need to field a decent 11-man squad. If you get 40% participation, that's 32 kids which is workable but teetering at the point where you start playing younger kids that aren't ready and then they don't want to get beat up and you start losing numbers and the snowball effect kicks in which kills the program.

That leaves 47 in 9-man. As 9-man schools continue to dwindle you could adjust the lower cutoff up to keep a decent number in 9-man, but I would never put the 9-man cutoff any higher than 100. 90 seems about perfect to me but that would put 26 in A and 60 in 9-man which is too big a disparity in my opinion.

There you go, something to chew on. You are right, it is not perfect. Someone will claim they would get screwed in such a plan. But 4 classes for 100 schools? To me that's a worse injustice.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Flip » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:21 pm

How many schools have football in SD? I'm pretty sure they have 6 classes.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Hinsa » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:51 pm

South Dakota had 6 classes this year: 11AA, 11A, 11B, 9AA, 9A, 9B. Next year they are adding 11AAA to make seven classes. Ridiculous.

In 2012:
11AA = 16 teams (450+ total enrollment, grades 9-11)
11A = 18 (200-449)
11B = 29 (113-199)
9AA = 27 (top third of 9-man teams by enrollment)
9A = 27 (middle third)
9B = 27 (bottom third)
Total = 144

SD is getting closer and closer to a trophy for everyone.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:13 pm

I think Montana is pretty similar to SD. I think they have 5-6 classes with about 16-20 in each.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby NDplayin » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:01 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:I think Montana is pretty similar to SD. I think they have 5-6 classes with about 16-20 in each.


You can find Montana's numbers on the internet. They have

AA= 14 Schools

A= 22 Schools

B= 49 Schools

C 8 man= 44 Schools

C 6 man= 45 Schools

This is a lot farther from "a trophy for everyone" then South Dakota. What I noticed and like it the numbers like 22, 49, ect... Apparently Athletic Directors in other states are able to make schedules that work without having a set number neatly divisible number of teams in each division.
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