2013-14 Football Plan?

North Dakota High School Football
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Flip » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:54 pm

Hang in there Heimer it's only a draft there is still plenty of time for VC to fall victim to "backroom politics and screwjobs."
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Mailman_25 » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:54 pm

heimer wrote:
Mailman_25 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:It's not any closer for GBC, either. Maybe that is part of the reason why Carrington dropped PBK so they could slip back to A and have decent road trips. Too bad there is not another school large enough out west to go up to AA to balance things out.


Well, not exactly.

Distance to Bismarck according to Google Maps (we all know Valley City is not going west)

Wimbledon: 131
Valley City: 135
Rogers: 137
Cooperstown: 166
Enderlin: 174
Casselton: 175
Lisbon: 182


I love this post. Let's calculate only the mileage to Bismarck to make a point. Did you bother to check the mileage to, oh, I don't know, say Beulah, Watford City, Stanley, Minot Ryan and Belcourt, you know, like 70% of the west region?

I feel bad that GBC is going to be west, but they were the logical choice for the move. They are closer to almost all of the region than Valley City.

In 2011's plan, the football board tried to shaft VC by moving them west instead of GBC, then dealing with the situation of Fargo Oak Grove remaining AA. A member of the football committee told me there was no rationale for moving Valley City instead of GBC. They just decided to do it.

Another screwjob of Valley City, likely payback for disrupting their Class "B" utopia with the 2009-10 basketball season. And this is how the NDHSAA operates, with backroom politics and screwjobs.

They got this one right, but only because they got a second chance at it. Between GBC and VC, GBC is the rightful team to take the west assignment. Frankly, they could fix this issue with smaller classes and schedules of everyone playing everyone. Until they do that, this is the way it is.


Thanks for sharing your open-minded thoughts again. If you were to have read the whole conversation, we were talking about the closest AA West team, which happens to be in Bismarck for either GBC or Lisbon. So that's why we were talking about Bismarck.

Since you make it sound like you are w/o a map, I'll help you out. "Beulah, Watford City, Stanley, Minot Ryan and Belcourt, you know, like 70% of the west region" are further away from Lisbon than than all the school of the GBC co-op. Do you fell better now? But like usual, you are getting worked up in your own imaginary world where VC does no wrong and the NDHSAA does no right unless it benefits your Hi-Liners.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:26 am

Don't run away from the implication Mailman. The implication clearly stated in the post I quoted was that Valley City was a better choice than GBC for west region assignment. And my statement that Valley City was assigned to the west the first time is fact, not opinion. No one with any common sense even had Lisbon on the radar.

This is just another attempt at screwing Valley City. Hide from it of you want, but I know the drill. And Flip, you're right, there is still plenty of time for your "B utopia" buddies at the NDHSAA to screw Valley City again. Only this time, I hope they are ready to go to court.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Flip » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:55 pm

heimer wrote:This is just another attempt at screwing Valley City.

How does the latest draft screw VC?

And Flip, you're right, there is still plenty of time for your "B utopia" buddies at the NDHSAA to screw Valley City again.

I'm not sure where this comes from, but I'm not sure if I've ever made a case for or against more/less classes in any sports. I frankly don't care very much. And I don't know anyone at the hsaa.

Only this time, I hope they are ready to go to court.

lol...sometimes I just put "lol" when I didn't actually laugh out loud, but I really did when I read this.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby EHS1998 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:19 am

I have heard that Linton has opted up.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:34 am

I'm guessing that bumps Bowman back down to region 4 9man and will probably cause a bit of shuffling of teams in the other region. My guess is Oak Grove goes to region 1 and probably Northstar gets moved to region 2 to even things out.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:18 am

Richland would go back to Region 1 before Oak Grove would.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:31 am

I didn't notice that they had Richland in region 2 in the draft. Wow, it would have made a lot more sense to keep them in 1 having 10 teams, then moving Northstar to Region 2 so both 2 and 3 would have 9 in the original draft.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:01 pm

The way football should be:

AAA--12 teams, 10 games, rotating one team not played every year in regular season.

No regional classifications, due to regular season schedule. Top 8 make playoffs.

West Fargo
Minot
Bismarck
Bismarck Century
Fargo Davies
Grand Forks Red River
Fargo South
Mandan
Fargo North
Grand Forks Central
Williston
Jamestown

AA--12 teams, 10 games, rotating one team not played in regular season

No regional assignments, top 8 make playoffs

Dickinson
Devils Lake
Wahpeton
Belcourt
Valley City
Fargo Shanley
Bismarck St. Marys
Griggs-Barnes County
Grafton
Beulah
Watford City
Central Cass

A--24 teams, 6 per region, nine games, travel alliance with other east or west region for four non-league games, based on your geographic position in state.

4 each region make playoffs

Region 1:
Kindred
Enderlin-Maple Valley
Lisbon
Ellendale-Edgeley-Kulm
Northern Cass
May-Port-C-G

Region 2:
Hillsboro-Central Valley
Larimore
Langdon-Munich
Wells County
Midway-Minto
Nelson County (L-A-E/DP)

Region 3:
Stanley-Powers Lake
Des Lacs-Burlington
Rugby
Williams County (Tioga-Ray)
Bottineau
Minot Ryan

Region 4:
Dickinson Trinity-NE
Lewis and Clark-Our Redeemers
Hazen
Washburn-Wilton-Wing
Garrison-Max
Carrington

Nine-man=rest

51 teams, regions of eight or nine to balance, bring back play-in round of playoffs, 4 per region.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby EHS1998 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:56 pm

Why wouldnt this work?
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:06 pm

We need a more robust 9-man class

We need to modernize our scheduling. 9 games has been the norm forever.

We need more competitive regular season games. 16-team classes don't make the state champs feel any better about themselves than 12-team classes.

We need schools to have more choices on competition. The opt-ups alone in the plan I suggested would make a more competitive atmosphere.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:47 pm

I wouldn't agree with over half the teams in the top 3 divisions making playoffs. It just goes back to the last few years before dropping to 4 9man regions and you get teams with losing records in the playoffs.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:09 pm

Awfully petty reason to oppose. Over half the AAA make it now. Shortening up the classes for better competition should yield some reward to the teams involved.

This is why this state goes nowhere in improving its high school athletics. Every idea seems to be 30 years out of date and based on no fact. What is wrong with 8 of 12 in the playoffs when EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR BELOVED B BASKETBALL TEAMS MAKE THE PLAYOFFS?
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby Mailman_25 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:14 pm

Heimer's plan look well-thought and and has sound reasoning. I actually think this plan could work, but probably would not get any consideration with the Board.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:25 am

heimer wrote:Awfully petty reason to oppose. Over half the AAA make it now. Shortening up the classes for better competition should yield some reward to the teams involved.

This is why this state goes nowhere in improving its high school athletics. Every idea seems to be 30 years out of date and based on no fact. What is wrong with 8 of 12 in the playoffs when EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR BELOVED B BASKETBALL TEAMS MAKE THE PLAYOFFS?


I am opposed to having districts send 4 teams to regionals as well. Would rather just have 8 regions with the top 8 of the regular season making the tourney. Yes, still more than half but basketball is a different sport than fball and that philosophy follows on all levels.

I don't agree with being rewarded for the playoffs if you can win half your games or finish above half of your competition. Last few years of 9man there were 2-6 teams making the playoffs because they were sending 4 out of 6 in each region.

I think your plan makes some decent sense in the top 2 classes, though. Seems to group similar schools together well. I think it would work out better to have 32 in A as it is now.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:25 pm

In this situation, 9-man is sending four out of eight or nine in each region. It would not be a repeat of what 9-man had previous to the last realignment.

In all of my proposals, basketball or football, I've always aimed for a varied, and to use the word again, robust, small-school class. I think 9-man football is the same. 24 A teams would work fine, and it's the one compromise the system makes to allow very competitive 9-man football.

You're good with the top class. You're good with the second class. The bottom class does not error with the playoffs the way you describe. What's your problem? If you're waiting for the perfect answer, you'll be waiting till we're down to 20 schools in the state, and kids are learning from home on ITV. Our aim is not perfection, our aim is improvement, and this is an improvement over what we have now.
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Re: 2013-2014 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:14 pm

My problem isn't with the 9man class. It's with your proposal for A. 24 teams with 6 in each region and 16 making playoffs. That means 4 out of 6 make the playoffs and it will end up just like 9man was towards the end before they dropped from 6 regions to 4. Teams with losing records making the playoffs...where a team only has to win 2 games all season and can qualify for the postseason.

I have another question for you heimer. How would your proposed plan adjust when the new Bismarck and West Fargo high schools come into play? I'm assuming move Williston and Jamestown down, but with how much Dickinson and Williston will be growing in the next 5+ years they will resemble the AAA schools and lot more than the AA schools. Expand the class to 14 or 16? What if Minot ends up building another high school with the oil boom? If that were to happen you would be at exactly 15 schools that are belong in the same class compared to the rest of the state. Jamestown I would imagine would end up the way of VC and Whap so they wouldn't fit as well to make it 16 in AAA.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:48 pm

The beauty of adding a game to AAA and making it a non-regionalized sport is that there is ultimate flexibility. There's 12 now, when WF2 and Bis3 come in, there can either be 12, 13 or 14, doesn't matter. If Williston gets bigger, you can add them and move someone down, or choose not to move someone down. If Minot builds again, who cares, add and move someone down, or don't.

If there's 12 and you play 10 games, you rotate one opponent you don't play.
If there's 13, you rotate two.
14, rotate 3
15, rotate 4
16, rotate 5.

Whatever. Or, you can regionalize again when you get to 14. But the beauty is you no longer need even numbers, so the idea that you have to rob AA of Devils Lake to fill AAA is gone.

Same for AA

As far as A, fine, take three from each region, and have a play-in round. At least then you have to go 3-2 in your region to make the playoffs. Sure, some teams will get in at 3-6, but that just means the region with their scheduling alliance was really good, and the play-ins will solve that. Play-ins have been solving the problem of 1 or 2 win teams in the post-season for years.........in basketball, and no one ever complains.

Keep in mind, we were on the verge of 3-4 getting in in AA east last year. That was not a reflection of the team. AA east swept the west in the playoffs. It was a reflection of the league.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:12 pm

When the Bismarck and West Fargo high schools come into play in a few year, I think everything will balance out nice with the 14 that will be AAA and the next 16 that will fall in AA. With a few more co-ops down the road we will probably be at 32 in A and 32 9man and I think that will work out well, too. I wish the NDHSAA would consider 8man or 6man to help some of the small school continue to field independent teams without the need to co-op. The constant shuffling of teams between divisions due to co-ops because of low numbers really throws things off.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:50 pm

6-man has no future. If I want to watch basketball, I'll wait till winter.

I'm okay with 8-man if they change the field. 40 by 80 instead of regulation.

In the end, they will want 16 AAA teams when the new teams come in, they will not stop at 14.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby The Schwab » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:51 pm

I am so glad that everyone is always out to get valley city, when in fact IMO it is the other way around, lets make things easy on them, like when a certain few administrators got together a couple years ago and we didn't have "class b" for a year instead we had "division b". Were you feeling sorry for North Border when they were sent to the west region for football? 9 man IMO is the division that best represents most of the class B towns in North Dakota so it makes sense that they have the most teams
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby d_fense » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:08 pm

heimer wrote:We need a more robust 9-man class

We need to modernize our scheduling. 9 games has been the norm forever.

We need more competitive regular season games. 16-team classes don't make the state champs feel any better about themselves than 12-team classes.

We need schools to have more choices on competition. The opt-ups alone in the plan I suggested would make a more competitive atmosphere.


I am not sure what you are talking about when you say "We need a more robust 9-man class". To me what you are saying is you want stronger teams at the top??? I look at the way things are now and I see to many lop sided scores. You take teams like Velva, Harvey, Oakes, Linton, Milnor/NS, and others and force them to play 9 man, you will really see some lop sided games. I am not saying these teams would kill all teams, but they would have the advantage of not having to have as many players play on both sides of the ball. And that is a big deal. If you allow these and other teams to opt up, would you have schools with even larger enrollments move down to 9 man? Would you force teams that want to play 11 man to play 9 man? I think that would really tick people off.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby heimer » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:27 am

The Schwab wrote:I am so glad that everyone is always out to get valley city, when in fact IMO it is the other way around, lets make things easy on them, like when a certain few administrators got together a couple years ago and we didn't have "class b" for a year instead we had "division b". Were you feeling sorry for North Border when they were sent to the west region for football? 9 man IMO is the division that best represents most of the class B towns in North Dakota so it makes sense that they have the most teams


Make it easy for them! That's a laugh! Take your beloved "B" team and go play in the EDC for a while, then tell me how easy it is.

Class "B": Don't spoil our party or we will get mad! I guess "B" stands for babies, as in, babies that whine about a good decision till you can vote it out of existence.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby EHS1998 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:57 am

Ok, what? I actually love your plan Heimer. But this last statement has lost me.
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Re: 2013-14 Football Plan?

Postby The Schwab » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:59 am

as I have said from day 1, it is easier for a school with 400 students to compete with a school with 1600 students then it is for a school with 50 students to compete with a school with 400 students. No response to the "divison B debacle"?
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